MOD NOTE: Please note the following part of the forum rules:
The initial OP posted below covers it well enough: the premise of this thread is that men's issues exist. Don't bother posting if you don't believe there is such a thing.
Here's hoping this isn't considered too redundant. I've noticed that our existing threads about sexism tend to get bogged down in Oppression Olympics or else wildly derailed, so I thought I'd make a thread specifically to talk about discrimination issues that disproportionately affect men.
No Oppression Olympics here, okay? No saying "But that's not important because women suffer X which is worse!" And no discussing these issues purely in terms of how much better women have it. Okay? If the discussion cannot meaningfully proceed without making a comparison to male and female treatment, that's fine, but on the whole I want this thread to be about how men are harmed by society and how we can fix it. Issues like:
- The male-only draft (in countries that have one)
- Circumcision
- Cavalier attitudes toward men's pain and sickness, AKA "Walk it off!"
- The Success Myth, which defines a man's desirability by his material success. Also The Myth of Men Not Being Hot, which denies that men can be sexually attractive as male beings.
- Sexual abuse of men.
- Family law.
- General attitudes that men are dangerous or untrustworthy.
I could go on making the list, but I think you get the idea.
Despite what you might have heard about feminists not caring about men, it's not true. I care about men. Patriarchy sucks for them as much as it sucks for women, in a lot of ways. So I'm putting my keyboard where my mouth is and making a thread for us to all care about men.
Also? If you're male and think of something as a men's issue, by golly that makes it a men's issue fit for inclusion in this thread. I might disagree with you as to the solution, but as a woman I'm not going to tell you you have no right to be concerned about it. No "womansplaining" here.
Edited by nombretomado on Dec 15th 2019 at 5:19:34 AM
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
From Vice: Why Are Young Men So Scared of Cunnilingus?
Featuring perhaps one of the least appealing SFW lead images if it wants to encourage folks to experiment.
Ten years ago, a bunch of researchers exploring condom use in the UK stumbled across something more interesting. Their study uncovered that British teens agreed that women expected oral sex much less than men – 20 percent of women, versus 43 percent of men. Earlier this year, researchers Ruth Lewis and Cicely Marston found that things were more complex – and contradictory – when they interviewed 16- to 18-year-olds for a study of their own, to find out their attitudes.
It turns out the teens already shared the idea that male and female pleasure is equivalent. "It's give and take," said one. But when compared to the realities of their actual sexual encounters, the boys reported being much more likely to receive head than the girls.
"Our analysis," wrote Marston and Lewis, "revealed two seemingly competing constructions of oral sex in circulation in young people's accounts: oral sex on men and women as equivalent and – sometimes simultaneously – oral sex on women as 'a bigger deal' than oral sex on men.
There's clearly a conflict there. Basically, the report found that while the teens interviewed said they were all for genital fun equality, blowjobs were seen as more of a given. But going down on women was seen as more significant – and, hint hint, may have meant that the guys weren't getting as much practice or learning how to actually find the clit. But why would cunnilingus be a bigger deal in the first place?
"There was definitely a sense that oral sex on women in a relationship was something you did to further the relationship or get something else," Marston says, speaking over the phone. "If it's just a one night stand, you don't necessarily have that incentive." The interviews in the report emphasised the prevailing idea among the teen boys that vulvas were "dirty", "disgusting", "nasty", "droopy", – come on, lads – "messy" and "stinking". That meant, therefore, that oral sex on women was undesirable work. By only resorting to them in relationships, hook-ups provided an acceptable escape route out of equivocal pleasure.
"When I was in school," says Angelo, a 22-year-old student, "a lot of my peers did think that it was pretty gross. I think there's less stigma attached now. Most guys I know would only do it to someone they were seeing and not on a one night stand." There it is again: the girlfriend exception rule.
This idea of vulvas as gross wasn't just echoed by guys interviewed in the study. Take Becky, a 17-year-old girl. "I think all males really like it being done to them but, um ... a lot of girls say, like, the same. It's just ... they don't really like it. They feel uncomfortable." When asked what some women's concerns might be, she went on: "I guess it's like, generally an area you're not very confident ... well, I'm not."
Mostly though, as Marston explains, the stigma against female genitalia provides an easy narrative frame for boys to explain why they'd refuse to engage in oral sex. Londoners in the study in particular referred to eating girls out as a reputational risk, with Malik, an 18-year-old, explaining that the derogatory term "bocat" refers to when "a guy does it to a girl. Boy, that is his life over because everyone knows about it."
Tom, a 21-year-old shop worker, remembers the same thing. "Yeah there was loads of stigma when I was younger, my friends at college used to call me a "motter".' Obviously, not all straight guys who eat women out have been called names for it. But there's still a sense that guys get an extra clap on the back for doing what's one of the most basic sexual acts. And the existence of this generally accepted tradition of viewing men who go down on women as an exception means that men can easily explain their personal objections as just conforming to the norm.
While "mostly for boys they get thumbs up from their friends for just about anything, [giving head to a girl] is the only thing that was a bit more ambivalent," Marston says. "We were speculating whether that's because it steps out of that narrative of women's bodies being for men's pleasure. That's possibly a reason why the men who did like doing it really emphasised how much pleasure they got from it, because it helps to explain it. It's like 'obviously I'm doing it because I get off on it', and that's the only explanation that's acceptable."
Funnily enough, people of all genders can find each other's genitals gross or lovely or a bit of both. "It wasn't that [girls] were necessarily different in their feelings of disgust," Marston says, "it was just that what they did after with those feelings was different – they'd still do it, whereas the young men wouldn't. They weren't like, 'ew, that's disgusting I won't do it', they were like, 'ew that's disgusting – I'll use strawberry lube.'"
Girls are just expected to get on with it. "I definitely gave more head than I received at that age," says Miranda, a 21-year-old bisexual arts student, remembering her teen years. "It was like head for a dude was standard foreplay and head for me was a treat. So oral sex when I was around the age of 16, 17 was very much about sucking dick."
So what now? A combination of normalising oral sex, for everyone, and moving beyond myths of "perfect-looking labia" boosted by porn and sniggering sex-ed classes would be a good place to start. Of course, you could always take the practical route, too. "Now that I am older and have eaten out a couple of girls," Miranda says, "I've seen other vaginas in real life – and I guess this makes me more comfortable with my own."
Absolutely no relation to NLK
I've found that it carries some stigma of self-consciousness for women that men don't have on receiving oral sex.
Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
The law in the night
Their loss, they don't know what they are missing.
Inter arma enim silent leges
United Earth
A CL would be my definition of the perfect quickie, but I'm quirkily kinky like that.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
I'm not sure the awkward sexual fumbling of teenagers, inundated with misinformation, insecurity, raging hormones, and surrounded by peer pressure can really be extrapolated to society at large. Even the article seems to suggest that they sort of figure it out by their twenties once they've grown up a little.
It also weirdly implies that the solution is to force expectations on guys than to remove the expectations on girls to give blowjobs. not that teenagers won't do what they do, but it's a weird slant for the article to take.
The law in the night
There is this need to hammer this mentality on a lot of young me it seems: Guarantee hers and she will guarantee yours.
Inter arma enim silent leges
Amused
Huh, I always thought oral sex (for both sexes) or fingering/handjobs were well accepted in recent decades......
Formerly known as Bleddyn And I am feeling like a ghost Resident Perky Goth
It should be but a lot of guys have some kind of allergy towards going down on a lady. It's probably because of the general idea that vaginas are unclean.
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
It's about dominance. Sucking dick isn't seen as less disgusting. The very word "to suck" means something is bad, after all. Going down on someone is seen as demeaning, as they noted in the study. It's simply that women/girls are viewed as having to serve men/boys but not the other way round.
edited 5th Oct '16 7:45:20 PM by Antiteilchen
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
Huh, one would think that the normal frequency by which male pornstars first finger and give cunnilingus before at last entering would have removed the stigma of vagina's being "gross".
Like seriously, it's fine and manly to shove your proton torpedo into an exhaust port but god forbid you actually take the time to orally warm it up and tease it beforehand? 
The law in the night
In porn it is probably because no man really wants to stare at another guy's face while watching porn.
Inter arma enim silent leges
Also, porn may give a skewed image of what a (average) vagina really looks like.
Also: Teenage boys (and girls) are notorious liars about their own sexual experiences.
United Earth
Skip to 9:41 for the relevant bit:
edited 5th Oct '16 11:23:28 PM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Queen of Good Things, Honest
As noted, it's totally about dominance. For some people, oral sex is an act of subservience. The act of performing oral sex involves one party giving pleasure without receiving an equivalent pleasure as is the case in vaginal sex. Thus, women - the Patriarchally "subservient" sex - are more or less expected to do it as a standard norm, while men - the "dominant" sex - have no equal societal expectation.
It plays into the unequal expectation that sex revolves around male pleasure. That it's something men do because they want it, and something women participate in to serve their man.
edited 6th Oct '16 8:07:55 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.
United Earth
Dominance? Haven't these people heard of reciprocity and delayed gratification? What about the god blessed 69?
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Queen of Good Things, Honest
Aren't really lessons young males get exposed to very often. As a consequence of teaching boys that women are prizes to be won, the concept of a mutually satisfying experience tends to fall by the wayside.
My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.
A procrastination in of itself
Here's one potential additional reason, you get what you ask for. Women are condition to not ask for things in general, never mind during sex when men are meant to be "dominant", so I suspect that women ask for oral sex a lot less then men do. That's goign to have an effect, it would explain why men appear willing to perform oral sex but aren't performing it, they're willing to do so if asked, but if their girlfriend never asks they're not going to do it.
Now it's almost certainly a mix of factors, but I don't think we should ignore the possibility that women receive less oral sex in part because they ask for less oral sex (because they've been conditioned to view their own pleasure as a negative and to never be assertive, ever never mind in the bedroom)
edited 6th Oct '16 8:38:45 AM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Queen of Good Things, Honest
Just remembered another reason. This is something that came up in conversation with my BFF once. Women are sometimes inclined to give oral sex as an alternative to vaginal sex when, for any number of reasons, they don't want to be penetrated down there.
For instance, out of obligation; oral sex can be used as a substitute for vaginal sex by a woman who doesn't want to be having sex at all right now but feels societally pressured to.
Teenagers run afoul of this one a lot, IIRC.
edited 6th Oct '16 8:46:03 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.
A procrastination in of itself
Which again brings us back to the assertiveness problem, we need to not only make it so that women are safe saying no/asking for oral but we also needs to condition women to understand that it's okay to say no/ask for oral, we can make men accepting of a no/a request for oral till the cows come home, it won't change anything if women are still condition to never say no/ask for oral.
I think you are however also ignoring the fact that some people do just want to get it on but not have p in v for some reason, oral is a perfectly good alternative in that situational and there's nothing wrong with it. The problem situations are the ones like you described, where the women doesn't want to do anything sexual and resorts to a 'lesser' sexual act to get the guy to leave her along.
edited 6th Oct '16 8:52:26 AM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
"It plays into the unequal expectation that sex revolves around male pleasure. That it's something men do because they want it, and something women participate in to serve their man. "
No always, is just that men giving pleasure to women is still framed in term of men gaing something, men duty is to please women....but only to show he is real men, that is way women dosent said much about how they feel because they risk to hurt men feelings
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
People act stupid, horny people act stupider.![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]")
What a lovely page topper...
edited 23rd Sep '16 3:50:07 PM by AngelusNox
Inter arma enim silent leges