Sexism and Men's Issues

I'll disagree with the last part. Barring the most visible memeing from Nicki Minaj, the most memeing I've seen came from the fat acceptance encouraging, which is an overwhelmingly female-dominant movement.

Quoting cuz pagetopper.

edited 7th Feb '16 8:23:15 AM by Luminosity

Well in terms of body acceptance, yeah, I mean the specific stuff mentioned in the video.

Anaconda was specifically about reclaiming her body from dudes (as evidenced by the drake scene and the banana scene in the music video) whereas the memes in the video were specifically attraction based. It also samples Sir Mixalot's "Baby Got Back" to further point, which is, once again, the same message as done in the memes I was discussing, but originating from a dude.

A Better counterpoint would have been anyone but Nicki, such as Meghan Trainor.

edited 7th Feb '16 8:28:10 AM by MrAHR

I kinda have a bone to pick with those fat acceptance groups for two reasons, first is that it is being used as a cover to justify outright unhealthy eating and living habits, like a good share of the Healthy at Every Size models look just a few pounds away from needing a bypass surgery. As well grossly misinterpreting medical data on weight's impact on health.

The second is a bit personal due to my sister having some anxiety issues and is very thin as result and in general the women in my family tend to be thin mostly due to being physically active. More than once my sister and my cousin were called out for being thin as if they should beef up.

And honestly, I speak as someone who was obese during childhood and still struggles with weight loss to some degree, I don't see any reason to advocate being fat or justify being fat as a valid and healthy life style choice. It is pretty much horrible, joint pains, apnea and other sleep issues, lack of stamina, too much money wasted into satisfying a sense of hunger that shouldn't be there and not to mention how awful you end up looking.

I hate seeing news like "fat men last longer in bed" or "fat men live longer" since it is being used along "natural curves" and "men love women with meat on their bodies" as excuses for not taking care of their own health and use them to deceive themselves and others that their unhealthy habits are not only healthy but should be considered something attractive.

It gets worse when you read the studies and they claim the actual amounts of body fat that grants health benefits are small to begin with and they are not the abdominal body fat.

I don't even think that body image issues should be treated as a sex and sexuality related issue, it is a health issue and a big one.

in my case I understand the intention but it remiand me one criric againts "nice guy": that they want people love them without doing nothing but demand (or not see) the effort it take for others to be that way.

Because the definition of "fat" is no longer "people with dangerous health" it's "anyone who doesn't fit a look."

Furthermore, we have so much shit in this world that we do that is dangerous for our health. And if someone is genetically skinny, we don't shame them, even if they are eating enough food to send them straight to the hospital. That is the problem .The fact that we ONLY hold people to these standards if they "look" the part, and then we make the assumption that it is our business and our opinions that matter the most.

Especially gratuitous when you take into account that not everyone is fat for the same reasons. For example, thyroid problems can make people fat. Pregnancy can make people fat. Years of abuse and depression can make people fat. And yet these people might be subjected to all sorts of societal ugliness because society deems it "ok" for us to act like we have a right to make people change. And that is where the pride comes in. Not because being fat is healthy, but because the way we treat overweight people can be down right terrible.

That.

I support fat acceptance. Yes, it can get into dangerous glorification by some delusional fucks, but those delusional fucks(and the obesity epidemic) had existed with all the shaming intact, and we clearly aren't solving that problem with more shaming.

Treatment of fat people is fucked up. They face constant slurs and ostracizing, media stereotyping, assumptions on their lifestyle, next to no representation(and most of it negative. That's why, among billion other unrelated reasons, Steven Universe is a godscend. Especially Amethyst. ). I persoally suffered constant bullying in my school years due to my weight, and even after mostly getting rid of it, anxiety and fear of getting it back sometimes overwhelms me to this day. No one deserves to be subjected to what I've been subjected to because of my weight. No, this is NOT "fatties can't stand being joked about". And I'm a man, meaning I got off easy.

Primarily this isn't attractiveness issue, or even a health issue. It's a goddamn basic dignity that's been consistently denied issue. So what if some people go too far in fat pride? They likely haven't been treated like people their whole lives. For some people, being fat is their only lifestyle choice. They don't have time, money, and genetic predisposition to be otherwise. They don't deserve being dehumanized for this.

I could rant for days, but bleh. Amethyst ftw.

edited 7th Feb '16 10:48:43 AM by Luminosity

There's a difference between saying it's okay to not have six-pack abs and bulging biceps, and saying it's okay to be fat. Being fat is unhealthy. It is bad for you. We shouldn't encourage acceptance of being fat any more than we should encourage smoking or alcoholism. Being fat shouldn't be considered a lifestyle choice rather than a health issue.

Things like thyroid problems and eating disorders are obvious exceptions — they're things that the person in question has no control over. That said, people with those conditions should still work on controlling their weight. Having legitimate medical reasons for being obese (beyond "I eat too much and don't exercise enough", I mean) doesn't make being obese any less unhealthy.

Really, what we need to work on is calibrating people's expectations. Expecting everyone to look like Arnold Schwarzenegger in his prime is a bad thing. Saying it's okay for everyone to look like Chris Farley is also a bad thing. We should be encouraging people to maintain reasonable, healthy weights. The extremes of "musclebound 'roidasarus", "cadaverous heroin chic", and "morbidly obese" are all bad in their own way.

I say this as a guy who's been heavy his whole life and is currently about 30 pounds overweight.

edited 7th Feb '16 11:05:45 AM by NativeJovian

So◊ much◊ for◊ healthy◊ lives◊

Those cases of body issues due to depression and diseases like thyroid syndromes are a very small share of the obesity and still those are treated with medication.

The problem with obesity is that it really is something that is visible, specially when there is undeniable health issues associated with obesity, as in not everyone who is skinny or thin is healthy but the sheer majority of the people who are obese and fat aren't healthy by a long shot.

You can be fat because you only have access to unhealthy foods or don't have a job that allows physical activity but still tiring, which is an economic and sociological problem, you can be fat because you have a genetic disorder and it can be treated with medicine or you can be fat because you simply eat too much or isn't physically active, due to lack of will, ignorance or simply enjoy eating and doing little physical exercises or work.

I am talking about people who jump on the body acceptance movements to justify them being severely overweight and obese.

It is the difference between taking 5 to 9 and then putting them together with 10 to 18◊. Everyone not being fit/skinny/thin being fat shamed is a fat shaming issue not a fat acceptance issue.

There is also the issue of the increased access to high calories foods and reduced physical activity in modern life, which is helping increasing the weight of the average person to unhealthy and chronic levels.

Insight: Fat Fighters did a great piece over the weight issues on Australia, which are virtually the same in the western world and even emerging economies, where being fat was the exception and not something common.

You're telling me this in a world where Scarlett Fucking Johansson is considered "not thin enough" for a movie poster?

It has never been about "just the ludicrously obese". Anyone who is even slightly overweight still faces the full force of shaming and discrimination. I wasn't obese, hell, I barely registered as overweight by the BMI. Yet you would not want to be me in school.

Weight is a spectrum. It's not "supermodel thin" vs "the Blob". Yet anything that isn't the former is automatically assumed to be the latter. For that matter, sure, being obese is unhealthy. Neither is smoking, neither is alcohol(moderate wine being in the gray area), so many things in our lives are unhealthy as fuck, yet somehow weight is the one thing that apparently deserves the most attacks of them all.

Yes, there's a lot of "fat shaming" over people who aren't actually fat. That's not okay. I specifically said that. I'm pretty sure that Nox feels the same way. Don't yell at us for things that we're not saying.

I am not talking about Jessica Alba being fat shamed, her of all people being fat shamed is ridiculous to unbearable degrees, Marilyn Monroe was the sex icon of her time and she was chubby. Hollywood and beauty industry standards of beauty is a related issue but of hardly the same as the obesity increase and health related issues arising recently in all groups, including in the layers of society, specially the middle class, that should have both the means and knowledge to avoid gaining excessive weight.

I am not talking about shaming people like these guys◊ because they don't have a slim belly and a six pack or women like◊ these◊ for not fitting inside jeans that will cut all the blood flow on your legs.

I am talking about fat acceptance groups taking men◊ like◊ these◊ and women◊ like◊ these◊ trying to pass them as completely normal and healthy individuals.

edited 7th Feb '16 11:38:23 AM by AngelusNox

... Is it just the video or that "Real men get raped" ad was really poorly worded?

The point is supposed to be that men get raped, yes even 'real' men.

It's in the video posted last page. I assume it was supposed to be "[some] real men get raped [and that doesn't make them any less of a man because of it]", but that's all was written in the ad (plus something at the bottom about "visit us" or something). So in the context of the video it sounds really bad.

Ohhh. Now I get it. On first glance, it sounded like it was promoting getting raped, given how oddly similar the semantics were to the "Real men wear pink" meme.

edited 7th Feb '16 12:22:24 PM by nervmeister

Yeah I raised an eyebrow at that as well...

There's one thing to try to reduce or eliminate the fat shaming. But it shouldn't come at the expense of shaming thin people. And not at the expense of trying to live a healthy life. But to me it seems like everyone's shamed for how they look, no matter how they look. Except maybe six-pack guys. Usually.

Everyone is shamed, but some get it more than others, and anyone remotely overweight will often receive harassment, despite the fact that we do not shame other unhealthy behaviors nearly as harshly.

There is also the fact that without surgery, many overweight people won't be able to discard what they look like, because of stretched skin and changed stomachs, so even if they do become healthier, their outsides might not reflect that.

edited 7th Feb '16 1:49:06 PM by MrAHR

Society places a lot of expectations on how people should look and anyone that doesn't fit into that is bound to get some sort of harassment or unflattering comments at some point.

Both men and women get a lot of shit for being even slightly overweight. Having any kind of flab on you can do a number on your self-esteem even if nobody makes fun of you on a regular basis, just because of how often these ideals are pushed onto us.

I think the most important thing is for the person to be in good health and comfortable with how they look. Degrees of chubbiness are irrelevant at that point.

Yeah, the add look really awkard to understand....

But Im with Nox in this one, is not the same shame for not being perfect or having hollywood standar but from there to ignore unhealthy behivor is awfull, even more when there this idea a men should prefer one over the others(and it have certain idea of nice girl throw in it)

I'm with Nox and Jovian here.

The main issue is that we often decide what is unhealthy based on a glance, and ignore other unhealthy behaviors as far less trivial, and treat fat people as being unable to do anything if it doesn't help them get less fat. There is nothing wrong with the mentality of "people should be healthy" the main arguing point is that people often don't realize all the baggage associated with it.

It's like saying "we should just treat everyone equally."

Yes... but that doesn't cover what the topic actually is, and how complex it can be.

edited 7th Feb '16 5:51:38 PM by MrAHR

True but the response to that has to be "we need to look at what is and isn't healthy properly and not make judgements at a glance", and not "there's no such thing as unhealthy, every way is fine".

Quite frankly, "healthy at any size" is an idea that I only ever see brought up by people trying to discredit body positivity activism. Actual bodyposi activism in my experience is more along the lines of "if you're not my doctor, shut the fuck up about whether or not I am healthy".