Sexism and Men's Issues

On a more light-hearted note: what happens when your little boy wants to dress up as a Disney princesss?

Adorable.

That's sweet.

So, uh... Out of curiosity, if one were to start a "men's issues (discussion?) group", how exactly would one do it? I'm not planning to do that, not at the moment anyways, but I would like to talk how one should be made, since the only kind of men's group people tend to know over here are the ones against feminism and in favor of sexist and toxic ideologies.

What I can think of involves being "pro-feminist", as in: defending the feminist message; thinking what "we", as men, can do about sexism and our privilege; talking about different feminist subcategories; presenting feminism to other men and showing why they should care/help; etc. The problem with that is it'd be "a group of men discussing feminism"... which doesn't sound like a very good idea. Introducing too few women into it might make them feel... maybe awkward would be a good word for it (this I'm saying due to experience), besides the possibility of backfiring in case too many men are already against feminism in the first place (although that's why we'd have men talking about feminism to other men... which goes back to the original problem). Introducing too many women makes it a little pointless as a men's group, and maybe even uneffective as one.

Besides that, of course, discussing men's issues. Showing that yes, men can be raped and sexually abused and why many of them don't report it, fighting against homophobia born from sexism, how to be a good father, that kind of stuff.

edited 8th Oct '15 4:48:18 PM by Victin

If you're discussing feminism then it's not a men's issues group, it's a men in feminism group, Now that's a perfectly good idea and something that could do a lot of good and be a great allied group for helping address women's issues. But it's not a group for helping men.

So first work out what kind of group you want. Do you want one for addressing men's issues and the problems that men face? Or do you want one for addressing the harm that men can do to women, the issues of men not being involved in feminism and how men can be allies to feminism? Both are worthy causes, hell you could do both, but make sure you know which one you're doing.

For the first one, just run events, it's not like there aren't plenty of men's issues you could get an event on, "The myth that men can't be raped", "Promoting men's choice to be a stay at home parent", "Suicide: our biggest killer and how men need to open up about mental health", "No shame: A space for men to talk about their mental health problems without fear of being shamed as 'weak'", "Dress as you please event: defying the stereotype that some clothes are 'unmanly'".

For the second option I'd suggest liaising with any local feminist groups, see what they think would be a good thing that could be done to help. I could think of a few ideas though: "Respecting women: A seminar on treating women like people not meat", "Not the enemy: learning the truth about feminism and how it is not a conspiracy out to get men", "Understanding the system: a beginners guide to seeing how what might be easy or desirable for you could be difficult or undesirable for others", "Benefits for all: A lecture on how feminism and addressing women's issues will have positive side effects for men".

Easy. Find like minded people, agree on a time and location to meet up. Then start doing community service projects together.

And yes, thank you for recognizing you can be a men's advocate without being antifeminism.

I greatly appreciate that.

If anything, find some quality feminist groups to do a joint project with and help get your name out.

Working with established feminist groups would be my advice too.

I wouldn't be the bitter progressive prole I am today without some awesome women in my life helping me out.

I still find it confusing and horrifying that this is a thing that has to be pointed out and noted. I mean it's blindingly obvious, like the sky being blue or the fact that Catholic bears Pope in the woods.

If you're one of those people that assumes rights are a contest it's not that strange.

Sure, but assuming that is like assuming that the sky is purple or that Catholic bears Imam in the desert.

@Silasw: I've never been a part of any group like that, but I suppose almost standalone events work for a cause like that.

@Gabrael (and Silasw): I think one of the biggest problems doing a men's discussion group like that is getting past people the fact it isn't a sexist and toxic group. Everytime I mention the notion over here people laugh at it, because that's what comes to their mind. So informing them constantly that yes, it's pro-feminist, seem to be the better thing to do (on the other hand, that keeps us from "converting" men who are against feminism).

Two issues that come to mind were I to create such a group are: 1) following your advice and connecting to local feminist groups, wrongly get to them the idea I want to steal feminism's spotlight and talk about my problems instead; and 2) actually having something meaningful to talk about, since only recently I started getting more interested in this kind of topic, and thus I would rather get someone more knowledgeable than me to talk about it - where would I find such a person here? Well, again, I'm not intending to create such a group. The school year is almost over, and I'll be leaving high school for college. I dunno how stuff is going to go then, and I believe there's a likely chance I'll be a little disconected from the cause. I'd be getting a little too personal were I to explain why I think so, or maybe why I shouldn't think so, and what I mean by "disconnected", since I wouldn't be actively ignoring it nor anything of the like.

That's why I suggest feminist groups because they are very good at organization, networking, and reaching out. Minorities and oppressed are really good at being legitimate because they have a lot more pushing on them to fail.

They will also probably have more people around who would be willing to jump in your cause. So that's a plus. It's easier to recruit when you have more people already with a clean endorsement from adjoining civil rights groups. Look into if there is a racial group with men who would like joint membership as well. That would be helpful.

Otherwise, start small, expect hatred, and persevere.

I think that for me one of the greatest moments of realization I've had in recent years was the day that I realized that equality isn't a zero-sum game.

from my experience getting men to recognize the importance of feminism can and often is quite difficult, partly because of the way society conditions men-to-men and men-to-women relationships.

there is a pretty damn strong social code among males that encourages them to consider their own interests and that of other men first and foremost (or what they think are their own interests, anyway), with women being, in their minds

a) mystifying, "otherly" beings who are difficult to understand

b)naturally prone to being distrustful of them(the fact that they are often distrustful because of mysogyny and abuse goes ignored here), which naturally makes men distrustful of them in turn

c) also primarily looking out for their own interests, and will not hesitate to put men under the bus while doing so. "bros before hoes" has more than a few roots in this.

this creates a culture where if you are a man defending women from sexism you are liable to be seen as a "traitor", a busybody, a "white knight", for aiding people who don't have your best interests in mind.

of course we know that by and large women don't really have anything against men intrinsically, they just want some space in media representation and creation, and to prune out behaviors that are hurting them, but men have no way of really experiencing these kinds of problems first-hand because they don't have the experience of being women, which means that they are less liable to believe them because of said social conditioning.

conversely i have seen it be easier to get people to open up about men's issues, even funnily enough ones that are linked to mysogyny.

we really need to find ways of decreasing this kind of segregation and the clannish attitudes it fosters, because they end up causing a lot of problems.

edited 8th Oct '15 7:47:38 PM by wehrmacht

That's why I suggested individual events, if one does a general "men's issues" group people may not be sure what the idea behind it is. But if you can come forward with an event and then a history of events you've got a much clearer message. "Men's issues group" could be taken as anything, "Event on the problems faced by male victims of rape and sexual assault" is a much clearer indicator of what a group is about.

Gab is of course right that recruiting initially from other local social justice groups is going to be a good place, LGBT societies, minority groups and feminist groups are all likely to have people who know about and care about the issues that men face if they try and break from assigned gender roles.

I'd disagree with that, first there's nothing natural about the distrust of women that many men have, that's manufactured by our society, it's not naturally occurring. Secondly men aren't encouraged to put their own interests ahead of that of other men, that's the whole point of "bores before hoes", it's about putting "the guys" before what your partner and often you would rather be doing. It's a trick, it's a con to try and convince young men that by serving a ridiculous set of gender roles and 'norms' they are serving themselves. Most of the time they're not, they're working themselves to death and driving themselves to depression and loneliness, but they've combined that by sticking to the roles and helping the system they're helping themselves, it's a lie that so many men fall for.

Selfish self interest is why I rejected gender roles. I didn't want to be that way, I had no interest in engaging in behaviour I didn't find in any way enjoyable, and I wasn't going to limit by own happiness by following a stupid set of rules that demanded that I not be friends with the people who understood and connected with me best (the girls I knew).

Oh and "white knight" is a term with different connotations then just the ones you seem to be using. I know I've seen it used by feminists to describe guys who try and 'save' women who neither want nor need their help.

edited 8th Oct '15 7:22:37 PM by Silasw

i think you either misunderstood what i was saying or i wasn't clear enough, because nothing about you are what saying really contradicts what i was trying to get across.

my point is that society conditions men to be clannish and disregard women, which can and often is not only bad for women but for them too.

edited 8th Oct '15 7:28:22 PM by wehrmacht

Okay then.

Don't be silly, I don't distrust women, I do watch out for 'em lying bitches tho'.(this post is ironic)

For me, it really depends on what and how feminism is opposed rather than the opposition itself. As a supporter of male rights I do not oppose feminism in itself, but I am against things like Duluth model, calls for female quotas when it is not necessary in the first place and mistreatment of male breast cancer patients.

Edit: Edited for clarity.

edited 9th Oct '15 11:01:34 PM by murazrai

There isnt any mainstream or accredited feminist or medical institution that still uses the Duluth Model or advocates for it. So that is a null issue.

But pray tell why are you against male breast cancer treatment?

edited 9th Oct '15 5:25:20 AM by Polarstern

Advocacy for male breast cancer is almost non-existent in my country. Apparently male breast cancer patients are denied of benefits that female breast cancer patients get as well.

edited 9th Oct '15 5:31:08 AM by murazrai

That's more a reflection of how ass-backwards Malaysia is on social issues. Of course, waiting for all the dinosaurs to die of old age might not even help considering how institutionalised these beliefs are.

I believe that this is a worldwide problem, albeit being downplayed elsewhere. I read a news that some guy was denied breast cancer screening or something similar, but I can't seem to find it in the internet.

There have been cases I belive, but I'm not seeing the link to feminism.

[[uncannymagazine.com/article/masculinity-is-an-anxiety-disorder-breaking-down-the-nerd-box/ Masculinity and nerdiness and stuff.]]

I feel like nerd was thrown there in the title to incite flames. Also, "man" is apparently a con.

edited 9th Oct '15 12:56:55 PM by MeetTheNewBoss