Sexism and Men's Issues

I don't think anybody is disputing that.

Nope, but seeing as you didn't post in the Sexism thread (found here[1]) I'm failing to see the problem.

Not all sexism is about women, people trying to hijack discussions about men's issues (in places specifically devoted to discussing men's issues) into being about women's issues (which while very important have their own thread) is one of the reasons asshats like MR As are able to recruit, because reasonably discussion get shut down because apparently talking about men's issues in the men's issues thread is a horrible thing now.

Here's a thought experiment for everyone, imagine I went into the women's issues thread and demanded that everyone stop talking about the women's issue at hand and instead focus on the mirror men's issue. I'd rightly be thumped and told to go fuck myself.

edited 25th May '15 8:20:37 AM by Silasw

Except that I wasn't trying to make it about women, I wanted to see if anyone had anything interesting to say about the connection, evidently, you don't.

As Nox notes, being tall is associated with masculine traits but apparently being short isn't linked with feminine traits? Like am I crazy one because I swear I've heard the short=feminine thing before.

I've got plenty to say, I'd just like to say it in the right thread, we've got both the Sexism thread and the Sexism and Women's Issues thread to discussion the idea that shortness is considered a negative due to being associated with women, why do we need to use this thread when it's the only one of the sexism threads that the discussion is not appropriate for?

Um... I think you missed the point. Shortness being linked to femininity is a men's issue. Because being short doesn't emasculated a guy. But, constantly being given social grief about being girly thanks to a trait that just happened?

Call me daft, but that's a problem. <_< It's a cultural issue. One that's often reinforced by other men, not just women. If both men and women get bombarded by the message that "real men are tall men" from the cradle, what result do you expect?

Being short being considered un-masculine is certainly a men's issue and one we were just discussing, but if we're discussing it it should be from that perspective, not from the perspective of it being considered feminine. It say seem like the same issue but the side it's being approached from is critical I think, if it's about what counts as feminine then I think it's being approached as a women's issue, while if it's about what's masculine then it's about it as a men's issue.

I admit that the tone on which this discussion started is part of why I'm reacting the way I am, I find it very demanding for someone to come into a thread mid discussion and tell people what they should be talking about.

This might surprise some people, but femininity is not the exact opposite of masculinity. Something being considered the antithesis of one doesn't make it automatically fall under the other.

Being short is more associated with being infantile and under developed than being feminine. Specially when physical prowess is associated with physical stature.

The same problems arise for bony men who look too thin, being considered just unattractive in media as short men.

Just let me put some examples from people I know. I have one teacher that is around 1,71m but he is stocky and quite muscular. Even though I've heard from women who wouldn't date guys like him, even though he is what is called manly, because he is just as tall or shorter than they are. Curiously enough his wife who is also my teacher is shorter than him.

One of the guys I joined college with was around 1,65 m tall. He is also very skinny but hardly feminine because of his body and facial hair. He also ended up dating the second shortest girl in the campus (which is really cute) that is around 1,5 something m tall.

I think the whole attraction to tall people is associated with genetic traits that are desirable in their mate while being short is an indication of the lack of such traits. Not because it is deemed feminine.

edited 25th May '15 9:35:40 AM by AngelusNox

Wether infantilized or feminized, the underlying problem remains that it is a perception that men must remain strong and ever ready to fight "to really be men". I think that is the issue, not the feminization or infanitlization per se.

And because something is considered unmasculine, that doesn't automatically mean it's considered feminine and therefore it's sexist against women.

Granted part of toxic masculinity is to enforce that binary really hard. If it's not masculine, you shouldn't do it, because it might be —gay—

Case in point, table top gaming like Magic: The gathering and War Hammer can be considered unmanly hobbies, due to being associated with NERDS! but hardly feminine.

And those communities also wrestle with issues of toxic masculinity despite that.

Usually by trying to amplify the masculinity in a weird way.

Like MLP suffers from that, with the unique moniker of "brony" to masculinize.

Don't even mention it, I got hit hard the "haha what a loser, he likes computers and pen and paper games than soccer and gambling cards" stick along being obese when I was a kid.

There are many reasons for people to call you a faggot that don't involve engaging in feminine habits or traits, but just by not being what is considered the expected the norm.

You like playing flute? What a fag.

You don't like sports? What a fag.

You don't think going to parties and getting wasted is fun? What a fucking fag.

I don't know how it is there but in Brazil anything that isn't manly is outright called gay or fag, regardless of what it is.

edited 25th May '15 10:04:22 AM by AngelusNox

Nerdy things are usually associated with being a "fat loser" or "beta male". Not with femininity or "gayness".

edited 25th May '15 9:56:43 AM by LogoP

Not really. "Brony" is really just a silly pun that originated on 4Chan and happened to catch on. I'll admit, when I first heard the term I imagined a group of fratty dudebros watching MLP in between bouts of COD or whatever.

But really, we bronies are just like the male fans of Sailor Moon or Azumanga Daioh; we know the show is feminine as hell and we embrace it.

Well, I'd not be so quick to nod and say that the toxic views about shortness don't include a link to being considered effeminate. Considering the number of short guys I've met who hit on me specifically because, and I quote one of them, "you make me feel like a normal guy". He'd been teased a lot about his height, being called gay, nerdy and girly because of it.

Finding the one girl in the place shorter than them, you wouldn't believe how entitled a few get about how I would automatically want to get together with them, thanks to shared misery. Yet, being shorter, they'd still get the ego-boosting bonus of the traditional stereotype of Real Man by standing next to me.

C R E E P Y

edited 25th May '15 10:08:10 AM by Euodiachloris

Except that the gender transgression zone is a documented occurrence, and is in fact symptomatic with the brony thing.

When dudes get something new, they make a new term for it. Some are silly, some are less so.

For instance with handgames, when boys adopt the "feminine" game, they tend to change the words to make them more violent.

And then on the other side of things you have stuff like "broga"

Competitive activities mixed with toxic masculinity also help foster certain attitudes. In Magic, we call these players "Spikes." The ones who don't care much about the cards, the story, the mechanics, original deck designs etc. They're just here to win. Sometimes they actually get into the math behind the game and such, charting mana costs and the like to determine maximum efficiency, but just as often, they'll copy deck lists off the internet, come to the game with whatever deck won the latest championship, and call it good.

To a Spike, the point isn't even to play the game. They just want the high they get from bludgeoning you into submission with their mighty penis. It goes without saying that they tend towards misogyny, but the arrogance and condescension that oozes from such a player makes the game thoroughly unpleasant even for other guys.

Not every nerd community calls them Spikes, but every community has these aspiring "Alpha Male" players.

edited 25th May '15 10:07:19 AM by TobiasDrake

Because we're talking about human behavior, there are going to be imprecise elements to take into consideration with regard to gender identities and how those identities are imposed by peer groups.

There is no official way of saying that nerd hobbies are or are not feminine or masculine, and that lack of clarity seems to be part of the point of this discussion, if my cursory glance is reliable enough. There have been times in history where strained intellectualism was held up as a standard of manliness, and you still see some of this in academic circles. Toxic masculinity does find its way into scholarship circles and in some ways they are responsible for proliferating it. The "serious pipe-smoking thinking man who only writes serious essays" is still very much alive. Or as one of my professors put it, too many male academics are trying way too hard to be Earnest Hemingway.

Basically this guy.

On the other hand, I was called a faggot multiple times for drawing pictures of Sephiroth and playing Legend of Zelda.

Oh, come on. People being really competitive is an issue of toxic masculinity?

By far the biggest stereotype i've noticed about the Brony fandom is the "Bronies = Pedophiles" one.

Ninety: To some extent, yeah. Also there's a difference between being really competitive, and being ONLY really competitive.

For instance, I LARP. And there were a few people there who were only interested in the combat. And not only, only interested in the combat. Only interested in the combat to the point that they could appear badass. Any battles stacked against them left them irritably pissed. Or playing an NPC in a losing battle left them pissed.

These people were...interestingly enough, all men.

edited 25th May '15 10:13:42 AM by MrAHR

Look at all those nerds trying to do nerd stuff. Hah. NEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRDS!

I only sniff men's jockstraps as a funny joke and spank their bare asses after making a touchdown in the green. lrn2man.