Sexism and Men's Issues

If you drink then you must accept the consequences of that drink. Now passing out or being drugged is entirely different story but still.

Being drugged or taken advantage of while unconscious is clear-cut rape because the other party maliciously uses your vulnerable state to their benefit. Even worse of they are the one who caused it in the first place. ^note :i.e. drugging, date rape

However, two people getting drunk and having sex while in this intoxicated state is much more tricky. Especially if unwanted pregnancies come up.

edited 17th Apr '15 9:41:41 PM by LogoP

It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.

According to the MA's, the guy is assumed guilty. I'll ask one of them what happens if it's two guys, if they're both guilty.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw

If it's two guys then suddenly— YAOI ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

edited 17th Apr '15 10:45:07 PM by LogoP

It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.

O please the rabbit hole gets deeper, try a situation where two people are gotten drug and pushed into taking drugs by a controlling third party who then makes them have sex with each other. Is the guy out of that pair a rapist? Or is the blame solely on the guy who arranged the situation? What about the additional factor of the girl being bellow the age of consent (but still close in years to the guy) and having previously said "nobody have sex with me tonight" to all in the room.

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran

I try not to ask MA's too many theoretical questions; few have the brain power needed to answer them. Their default position is likely to be "whoever has a penis is wrong," and depressingly, they are statistically likely to be correct with that assumption.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw

O no I wasn't suggest you ask about that kind of situation. I was simply giving an example of the kind of situation that can come up, that's a real one.

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran

The third party is the rapist by proxy of both drugged victims. I don't think that one is hard. Even if the third party didn't drug them but abused their drug induced state, they'd be the one taking advantage of the other two to their own amusement.

Also, there are cases where women have been pressured to drink even when they didn't want to, or to drink more than they intended. Because women are socialised to defer to men, especially when those men seem dangerous, women will do things not because they want to, but because they're afraid of being beaten or murdered.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

I find the drunken sex thing a bit more complicated.

More than once I've hooked up with someone but I was definitely the drunkest party and other times I was fairly sober and hooked up with a girl who had more than a few drinks but still able to think and in both cases she was the one who approached me. None of those ended up with drunken sex though.

Technically I was abused but I never felt like I was but I also could be the abuser depending of the metric.

You gotta make some questions.

Are both of them drinking enough to stop thinking clearly?

Are both of them fairly drunk but still able to give consent?

Is he/she pushing drinks on him/her to make him/her easier?

Is one of them drunk enough to stop thinking clearly but not enough to pass out?

Is one of them passed out already?

edited 18th Apr '15 7:26:55 AM by AngelusNox

Inter arma enim silent leges

Of course real life is complicated, but this is Navy policy I'm talking about. Why should it conform to real life when they can force sailors to comply with policy instead of reality? It probably also has to do with the Navy's attempt to convince sailors to drink less; if they can convince people they're going to get in trouble for willing drunken hookups, maybe they won't get drunk enough to do stuff like throw trash cans through taxi windshields, or murder old ladies for pocket change.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw

X4 The third party was also himself drunk and on drugs, I don't know how the guy guy was given the drugs but I know the girl had them put in her drink and wasn't told about them until she'd started drinking.

Then there's the factor of the third guy who while both drunk and on drugs was I believe more aware than the other guy. Of course if it ever came down to charging anyone it would be pretty simple, as the guy behind the whole situation was the asshole abusive boyfriend of the girl, so he'd be the one charged.

X3 See now that's a thing that's always scared me, I'm always afraid of pushing others (but particularly women I'm romantically interested in) to do things they don't want to. Having a gilrfreind who did that on some level (for a small thing but still) didn't help that fear. Luckily I don't have that fear with my current gilrfreind, as she often says no to my stupid suggestions.

X2 Yeah it's a weird one, I think that the legal basis is that there is a level of to drunk to consent but that it' a line somewhere, however for simplicity sake the assumption will be that if a party says they were to drunk to consent they are to be believed.

I've had my fair share of drunken run ins. From being 13 and having one of my friend chase me around my room because she wanted to get with me, I said no to that because I knew I'd be taking advantage of her (both her drunkeness and the fact that she was only trying to get with me because she was going though a crisis and was afraid I'd stop being her friend). Took me 7 years to get another chance at any action with anyone but I always knew I did the right thing.

Otherwise I've hit on people while drunk and been turned down (with one friend once asking how I'd react if they actually reciprocated my advances and me admitting that I'd freak and worry that they weren't okay).

Getting up to stuff though, that's only happened with gilrfreind, a couple of times when me and my current girlfriend have gone out drinking and also had some fun. The most serious drunk I've gotten and done stuff is probably when I've played strip-dare-shot glass-chess, and both times I've done that we've started the whole thing going "Okay let's get drunk and see what naughty shit we get up to".

Then there's the time when my girlfriend and I went out and she ended up far to drunk and I shepherded her back home and put her in bed. Honestly when someone's that drunk I don't see the interest, I just wanted to make sure she was okay.

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran

On the whole "teach men not to rape" thing, I'd just like to say that the CDC's stats show that in America most men are actually raped by women. They're nowhere near as frequent as female victims of dudes, but the "teach men not to rape" slogan erases male victims of ladies, which encourages the myth that only men are rapists and most men are raped by other men. When they aren't. Just my two pennies.

edited 19th Apr '15 3:13:29 AM by OdinsLeftEye

The name's Axel. Wanna check out Aim 4 The Head, my Zombie Apocalypse spoof comic?: http://www.smackjeeves.com/comicprofile.php?id=138048

"On the whole "teach men not to rape" thing, I'd just like to say that the CDC's stats show that in America most men are actually raped by women. They're nowhere near as frequent as female victims of dudes,"

link?

I find all statistics linked to rape of any kind to be disturbing, but few more so than that grown women raping underage boys is still often not considered rape at all by the general public. You don't get Adam Sandler comedies, or episodes of 30 Rock and the George Lopez show, made out of grown men molesting 13-year-old girls.

To be fair to that one episode of 30 Rock, that teacher did hard time and had her life ruined by molesting Judah Friedlander's character (whose name eludes me atm). He found her working at a Long John Silver's because that was the only place that would take her.

Goddamnit, i really can't remember his name. Everyone else on that writing staff but his character's name...

True, but generally when such cases do get brought to court, the rapist does get punished in some fashion; that's as it should be, but what bothers me though is the public perception. 30 Rock saw fit to show Friedlander's teacher having been punished by the civil authorities, but they presented the situation of their relationship for laughs anyway. It's like, ok, this is illegal, but isn't it hilarious?

Incorrect. Out of every nine cases that get brought to court, only 5 get a conviction and only 3 of those end up with jail time. That said, even getting to the court stage is less than a 1 in 10 shot.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Ah, okay. I beg your pardon then. That just makes things worse.

RE: "Teaching men not to rape"

The real problem with this isn't that it's sexist (which it is) or that it ignores male and female victims of women (which it does) or that it implies that people don't know not to commit rape (which they do; the problem in most cases is identifying that what they are doing is rape). The problem is that if offends the very demographic you are trying to reach out to.

Now I've been in conversations with people who say "who cares about offending potential rapists" to which I say, "you should." If people find your campaign to be insulting they aren't going to listen to what you have to say, and that means your point isn't going to get across. You can insist all you want that you don't have to be polite and that they should listen anyway (and I've been in conversations, especially with more extreme feminists, who believe this) but in doing so you just ignore reality. Yes, they should listen. But they won't.

Assuming that the goal is "decreasing rape" rather than "fighting for your right to offend the male gender" then it's got to be worded better. Otherwise the message doesn't get out, and nothing gets accomplished.

And yet, teaching men not to rape does more to impact actual rape numbers than any amount of work with victims. The biggest issue there not being that they want to be rapists so much as they don't notice when they are because they aren't taught to recognize what rape is.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Isn't that still technically teaching 'what constitutes as rape', rather than 'teach men not to rape'? There's a bit of a difference, since the latter only works in the Pavlovian sense (and it might have a higher rate of failure), while the former is more effective/efficient in the long term.

edited 20th Apr '15 1:22:06 PM by Quag15

I'm sure it does. Even a badly-executed campaign, after all, is better than no campaign whatsoever (usually anyway). I still, however, expect that a better designed campaign, using better language, would yield better results.

That's a semantic issue, really.

The phrasing of the "Teach men not to rape" line that everyone's latched onto stems from an outraged response to the idea that rape prevention is a woman's obligation. It's half a sentence, the full sentence being, paraphrased, "Instead of teaching women not to get raped, teach men not to rape."

The latter half became the meme now being discussed. It's not semantically perfect, but that's because it's a frustrated outburst, not a carefully constructed campaign line.

Which is why the actual campaign for educating men about rape is called Don't Be That Guy. It's still got the issue of being gendered, but it doesn't have the same "Not to Rape" versus "What is Rape" issue that Teach Men Not To Rape has.

edited 20th Apr '15 1:32:00 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.

X4 To they actually teach men not to rape or do they teach men what is rape? those are different things and while I question the first idea I think we're all in favour of the 2nd because it's so dame effective.

Yeah that's a fair point, it's actually called something separate, personally I'd like to also see a "Don't be that girl" campaign aimed at teaching women what constitutes rape run alongside it, but that well has already been poisoned by a bunch of fuckfaces.

edited 20th Apr '15 1:31:39 PM by Silasw

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran