Sexism and Men's Issues

The obligation of the man to pay for the date stems from the same Patriarchal value as men approaching. If you're making the request for the other party to spend some time with you, it's a bad first impression to present it as, "You seem like someone I'd like to get to know, will you pay for me?"

Women taking more initiative in making the approach and women paying their fair share are both feminist values and are becoming increasingly more common in the West, however there is also some opposition from both men - who resent that women taking a more active role in the courting process is a strike against the Dominant Male, Submissive Female cultural standard - and from women who grew up with the notion that it's a man's responsibility to sweep her off her feet and take care of her forever.

edited 26th Sep '14 11:24:33 AM by TobiasDrake

Yes, happiness is a thing here! Kinda funny, it is not so much happiness as it is "We give absolutely no flying fucks, lol" attitude. It is pretty hilarious.

But in either case the foundations of my question are based on a much more uh. Private experience. But uh. I am of the mind that besides the decency and "showing interest" approach there is also this sort of...demand or expectation of providing gifts, lavish or not, and support to "teh lady!!1!". Is it just my perception or is there some uh. Negative attribution to the man who does not see it that way

To be fair, Tobias, I've also had resistance to the idea of women approaching from feminists. However, in that case, it's based on a "coerced conformity". In other words, the act of approaching men makes women (in their view) disproportionately vulnerable to ridicule, shaming and perhaps even violence. Thus, unless that disproportion is removed, women will continue to conform to that gender role, because it's too dangerous not to.

EDIT: Incidentally, women that do this in Japan are known as "carnivore women" (opposite of "herbivore men").

edited 26th Sep '14 11:33:48 AM by KingZeal

Huh? I've never, ever, ever experienced or heard something like this. Ever. Nothing makes a man more happy & desirable than being asked out by a woman he likes.

edited 26th Sep '14 11:39:24 AM by LogoP

At least in my region, the economic crisis has definitely impacted courtship.

It's not like we had a lot of money down here to begin with, but there is still the pressure and silliness that men are to actually ask for the date. Women can flirt like hell, but men take her out. Most people pay for their own halves wherever they go or split it somehow such as at the movies, the man buys the tickets and the girl buys the popcorn and drinks.

That is actually something that guys use to measure the quality of a woman down here: does she expect you to pay for everything and demands monetary or tangible gifts? She's not seen in high quality so much.

Personally I feel if the couple sets the rules then that's what rules need to be followed. Aprilla and I trade off in who pays for what if we don't pay for ourselves individually. (We rarely go out because we can get movies from Netflix or our Library and have more fun taking the dogs out.)

I did get one older man comment how I was paying one time. I just said that partners are supposed to take care of each other. I am in the position to take care of him, he'll take care of me later. I'm not his property. I am his partner. That shut him up.

I think the concern should be more of the balance of general give to take. Are you appreciated? Are your efforts returned with the same effort? That's more important. The contributions and respect should match in quality, not in exact denominations.

Yeah, the crisis has changed our lives a lot. The most common thing to do here is share the bill & go dine at Mc Donald's.

"A woman he likes". Unattractive women, or women that have done the same with lots of other men, usually don't count.

See, in the Black community, this would be acceptable as long as he still gets to "hit it". Being forced to pay everything for women is considered an acceptable consequence of being a man. Doing it and not getting the sex you were after, though, makes you a loser.

edited 26th Sep '14 11:47:44 AM by KingZeal

Logo, I think that what Zeal meant was not as in "Men wouldn't like being asked out" but as in "Women have more reasons to feel vulnerable and scared than men when asking them out"

To focus it solely on the men's side, however as not to focus so much in the comparison between the two genders, I gotta say it does feel kinda. Uh. Weird to have to be the one who initiates all shows of interest.

I've had more of my friends make presents or just do chores for each other as signs of affection.

I think it's romantic as hell when Aprilla changed my oil for me. I think practical gifts are more sentimental because it shows he cares about my wellbeing, not just trying to build brownie points. He thought and put effort into something for me.

Yeah, my mentor (a woman) once told me that buying gifts for a woman only makes her feel like a prostitute, and the more expensive the gift the more she feels like you're forcing the expectation for her to sleep with you.

She taught me that the best gift is doing things for her that show time and care (making things for her, doing work for her, assisting her with practical problems). That's not to say that expenditures should never be done, but that should be a rare treat and not the go-to option.

edited 26th Sep '14 11:51:43 AM by KingZeal

If you don't find the girl hitting on you unattractive, you politely decline. If she insists, you make your position more clear. And vice-versa, of course.

Honestly, insutling/beating-up a woman just because she asked you out sounds messed up & a hyperbole, to me.

edited 26th Sep '14 11:52:07 AM by LogoP

I have. It's something one of my colleagues talks about from time to time. She's been slut-shamed for making the approach several times.

I don't know about slut but if a person keeps making advances after clearly being rejected several times, s/he sure acts like a stalker.

Honestly, if a woman approached me, she wouldn't be a slut. She'd simply be a victim of incredibly bad taste.

That said, how is the subject best approached then to more...traditionalist minded people? Blagh. I don't even know where I am going here.

Depends on which "traditionalist minded" people you're referring to. There are a lot of traditions out there, after all.

It's not being slut-shamed because she asked you out. It's being slut-shamed for asking lots of men out.

Or, perhaps slightly less negatively, being considered "easy".

I wouldn't go so far as to say buying gifts makes a woman feel like a prostitute. It is nice to receive presents so long as the context is clear. It's the expectation with it. If I were dating a guy for say, a week, and he gave me an expensive present, I would be more concerned over the immediacy of the gift, not the price.

Aprilla and I have been together a few years now so he can spend how much or how little money he wants so long as it's financially responsible. But I would advise no expensive or elaborate gifts until after at least a few months. You don't want the gift to be unappreciated or not respected. I gave a guy I was dating a painting I custom did for him. The materials were cheap, but it took a ton of effort on my part. He broke up with me by introducing me to his new girlfriend. What bothered me most over it all was that I gave him my damn painting.

I've been slandered for asking a guy out first. Both by others and the guy. I don't appreciate the treatment but as someone who has been screwed over by men before, I rather take the path of clear communication and less chance of heartbreak than being vague and missing out. I have also had a lot of problems with people liking me and either not being communicative of it, or they thought I was in on it and I was oblivious. I sure as all that is holy don't want to be in that situation again. That shit's scary and dangerous.

Meh, men ask women out much more frequently than women do & don't get called out. Especially in the University. Women don't get either. At least where I live.

That being said, I know a woman who was considered "easy" back in her day. But that was an image she herself created because, well, she enjoyed casual sex.

The whole "buying gifts makes your S.O. feel like a prostitue" seems like radical exaggeration, to me. Gifts serve as a gesture of affection. Before I left town, I loved receiving cosy gifts (mostly clothes) from my gf. She loved hitting the shops to pick them up, too. Does that make me a prositute and her my pimp?

edited 26th Sep '14 12:14:37 PM by LogoP

Interesting survey in what never before married men and women want in a spouse.

The options to choose are a little cliche, but over all I don't think it's surprising or horrible.

I've had instances where women have warned each other against dating a guy because he's a "womanizer", whereas womanizing simply means Really Gets Around and no other negative attributes. When I asked them if he was abusive or sexist or obnoxious in some way, their response was that they didn't know of him doing anything like that, but just sleeping with lots of girls made him "a creep" and that they wouldn't want to ruin their reputation by dating him.

I think what some women might fear from that type of man is the possibility that he may see them as an one-night stand. When they themselves are looking for something more long-term.

edited 26th Sep '14 12:17:33 PM by LogoP

A guy only gets slammed for that down here if he is cheating in order to get around or making a lot of babies and ditching them.

It's interesting the regional differences in priorities.

Making babies and ditching them is low. Not using protection in general is a strong sign of an irresponsible donut.

Babies can still be conceived even while using protection as many a responsible adult of any gender has found out.

Which is unfortunate but thankfully rare. In that case, the only thing one can do is recognize it.