Sexism and Men's Issues

That's why they don't work, resulting in Nice Guys becoming bitter misogynists complaining on the internet about how bitches only want assholes and nobody appreciates how great they are, and then sometimes going on murder sprees.

Or, alternately, they grow the f*ck up and learn to appreciate women for more things than their potential for being the Love Interest in their own personal story. When you stop being the guy who is clearly just trying to get into women's pants, you start getting to interact with more women.

edited 25th Sep '14 2:18:31 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.

Same here. I was taught nothing at all specifically about getting a girlfriend (or boyfriend). As for qualities I should look for in a mate; they were just the same as in a friend. Also, hitting on someone who already is in a relationship was always a big no-no. It's mean and someone who would cheat their girl-/boyfriend with me, would have no compunction about cheating on me either.

It needs to be said that women are people and that getting a relationship is a partnership, something you do with each other not against each other. Getting a relationship is forging an alliance not making a conquest.

I think part of it stems from the fact that guys and girls approach friendship differently. Now keep in mind this is just personal experience but after talking to plenty of people in both groups it sounds like most guys see female friends that they're attracted to as potential girlfriends whereas most girls see their male friends as just friends.

edit: When it comes to getting a girlfriend I never really knew how to go about doing it. I would always talk to girls and try to get to know them but would soon find out they had boyfriends. The few times they didn't they made it clear that they weren't interested in me that way. Now that I'm at college it seems like the normal way to meet girls is to go to parties and bars but I'm not into that sort of thing.

edited 25th Sep '14 2:19:22 PM by kostya

Agreed. This is, if anything, one of the biggest stumbling blocks between men and women as far as friendships go. It's where the dreaded term Friend Zone comes from, a concept that some of us will unironically claim is the worst thing a woman could ever do to you. As if the idea of having a friend who is female but has no intention of sleeping with you is a travesty against your manhood.

I just...I don't know. Can we stop pressuring young men that they need to bang as many women as possible? Can we stop making it a competition that you are failing if there are any women in your life that aren't your bedmates? Can we have more male/female relationships in storytelling that don't have to end in sex to be fulfilling?

edited 25th Sep '14 2:28:36 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.

And I think part of that comes from aesthetic differences. I think it's more acceptable for guys to be slovenly and unkempt than for women to be the same. Further, women's fashion tends to be inherently geared towards showing off their physical assets as a sexual partner while men's fashion at best does this indirectly by demonstrating abstract qualities like success. You have no idea how many guys don't even realize that the way women are taught to dress, sit, groom, and act were all at least refined into indicators of attractiveness.

That makes it harder for guys to possess female friends; I often get asked by guys if I'm banging any of the lovely girls I'm friends with now, because they simply can't fathom I'd do it for any other reason.

Do you mean "they're attracted to" in the sense of being romantically attracted to them or in the sense of believing that they are physically attractive? Because if it's the former I'd say that applies to girls, most people see people they are romantically attracted to as potential partners.

And it's far from just guys, society in general sees any girl a guy is friends with as someone he must be trying to bang, it's incredibly frustrating, I'm thinking I should just start referring to my best friend as my sister to cut down on the bloody hassle (we call each other brother and sister anyway because we're so close, but we both tend to introduce each other as "close/best friend" not "brother/sister").

Hey I've bedded most of the women I'm close to, assuming that by that you mean "shared a bed with due to a lack of guest beds and us all being close enough that it's not weird".

edited 25th Sep '14 2:32:42 PM by SilasW

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

Every female friend is a potential girlfriend, but not all potential leads somewhere. I mean, everyone you meet is a potential axe murderer, aren't they? I still haven't been attacked with an axe yet, though.

Whether it becomes a problem or not just depends on a person's ability or otherwise to let things go if nothing happens.

'All he needs is for somebody to throw handgrenades at him for the rest of his life...'

Yeah the "potential girlfriend" naming is a bit awkward for that. I'd say it is more like romantic or simply sexual attraction rather than "possible girlfriend material".

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes

Silas: Physically. If a guy is friends with a girl that he thinks is cute he's most likely going to spend time thinking about what ifs involving the two of them together. This happened to me fairly frequently growing up and the same is true for all the other straight guys I've talked to about this.

Coming from a recovering Nice Guy, "eventual girlfriend" may be a better phrasing.

I "pursued" a woman for two years with that mindset; be nice to her, act like a friend, support her whenever she needs it, and be patient for that inevitable day when she suddenly realizes her true feelings for me. The Nice Guy doesn't really consider her a potential girlfriend, so much as the Damsel waiting to reward him when he reaches the end of his hurdle. This is what makes it so insidious; because any obstacle, up to and including her own reticence to date him, is considered just another conflict thrown at him that must be overcome to receive his inevitable prize.

I never even considered it to be a possibility that maybe she and I won't wind up living Happily Ever After. I took it for granted that the story ends that way, and I just had to figure out how to navigate the ocean of hurdles to reach that point. Her lover wasn't a dissuading factor, but the Final Boss I knew I'd probably have to confront at some point; I kept an ear out for any sign of romantic troubles in their relationship, waiting for my cue to swoop in and rescue her, and counted every squabble as "another step towards the final blowout".

That's the key distinction, I would say. Considering the possibility of hooking up with a friend is human. Considering it a certainty is dangerous obsession.

edited 25th Sep '14 2:42:54 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.

That sounds similar to the way I used to be. I'm not too proud of the person I was growing up.

Agreed with Tobias.

There is a big difference between saying, "We have a cool enough friendship, could we be romantically compatible?" and "We are supposed to be together by now."

I've had guys do the whole Nice Guy bullshit with me. It sucks

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

The line between "I am a friend and also attracted with you" and "Material for a Rick Astley song" might be thin, but simply having sexual or romantic attraction for someone who is, nonetheless, your friend I believe deserves some separation from "entitlement" and "outright fucking creepiness"

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes

That is one thing I would say most guys don't know: what they may think is sweet can come off as fucking creepy and scare girls away.

Mostly it is by taking something that could be good too far.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

Well, yes. Different people can lay on the compliments in a way that comes of creepy. But my point was that simply having the attraction by itself, not how the guy decides to manifest it, is inherently the creepy thing here

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes

Action is creepier than words. Most girls are used to creepy vocals. But many guys try to be sweet or show their interest and just come off all wrong.

This goes back to what I consider wrong intent. If the girl thinks you guys are friends and you just see her as a points machine to keep putting in quarters until a prize pops out, what is harmless in your head can come off horrible to her because the intents don't match.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

Learning how to tell the difference between showing interest in a girl and coming off as a creep is another problem that I think a lot of guys have. I get concerned a lot of the time about how I come off to girls I'm interested in for that reason.

Yes, but, again. I am not refering to the guy who walks up to his friend and says "Hey Janie, nice boobs today! Can I have a motorboat ride? Hahaha! jk"

Simply the one who approaches Janie and thinks "Dang. Janie is really hot". And then walks up to her and simply greets her normally. "Hey Janie. What's up?". While impulsiveness is a trait many men struggle with, feeling something for another person, even if unrequited, is not a sureshot sign of creepy-gumbo hanging like Damocles' sword above Carrie at the prom.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes

X3 Id say that anyone who sees another person "as a points machine to keep putting in quarters until a prize pops out," isn't having harmless thoughts in their head, seeing another human being as nothing but an object for you to win is very harmful.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

I never said it wasn't.

I differentiate between guys trying to approach a girl honestly and just fuck up and guys who pretend to be friends.

Consider this example: I worked in a retail store. My manager thought it would be a good idea to post employee birthdays as a fellowship thing. This however meany that most customers found out our birthdays because employees wouldn't keep their mouth shuts or were decorating, whatever.

I had a guy send a package to the store with flowers for my birthday. It would have been sweet to just come to the store with one flower or a candy bar in a ribbon, wish me a happy birthday, and ask if we could hang out sometime.

Instead, because I refused to tell him my last name or where I lived or even went to school, he sent a dozen roses and a giant polar bear stuffed animal to my work.

So not cool.

edited 25th Sep '14 3:35:52 PM by Gabrael

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

That's pretty creepy. I think it ties round to the idea that a man's success is measured by his wealth and that the best way to show your wealth is to shower someone with gifts.

I've never subscribed to the idea myself. The closest I ever came was the time (when I was 14) that I gave a girl a thing of flowers and a box of chocolates. And that wasn't a money thing, that was because I'd given single roses to girls before as just a friend thing (it always made my female friends sad to be singe on valentines, so I would buy them each a rose to remind them that they were awesome people who deserved to be happy), and the chocolates were her favourites.

And even that was over the top when I think about it, when I've given people teddies it's been because I worked very hard to win them on claw machines, for valentines the main gift I got my at the time girlfriend was a hand written (I don't hand write anything ever if I can help it) love note describing some of the things I loved about her (written with a pen she got me for Christmas).

Real genuine romance isn't particularly hard, I don't get why people think that just throwing expensive over the top gifts is a good idea, it just comes across as if you're trying to buy the person.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

"...it just comes across as if you're trying to buy the person."

Society still does push the idea that the man is supposed to be the provider. Some men probably take note of this and figure that if they spend all this money on her he'll prove that he can take care of her and she'll have to like him back.

Guys are also told bigger is better. If one chocolate bar is good, a WHOLE MOUNTAIN must be SPECTACULAR!

small isn't bad. Small is intimate, personal, and more friendly.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

Dam strait. If you're getting someone a gift than make it something to do with them, not item #51 from the generic romantic gifts catalogue. Hell that applies to all gifts, birthday picnic for the friend who's spending her birthday at the zoo, fake ID for the under 18 smoker/drinker, a cool FPS game for the hardcore gamer, it's not that bloody hard.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

I don't know how many guys insist on arguing with me when I tell them there is a difference between working for a relationship and preforming for one.

The girl you have to preform to get is normally not something you want to keep.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur