MOD NOTE: Please note the following part of the forum rules:
The initial OP posted below covers it well enough: the premise of this thread is that men's issues exist. Don't bother posting if you don't believe there is such a thing.
Here's hoping this isn't considered too redundant. I've noticed that our existing threads about sexism tend to get bogged down in Oppression Olympics or else wildly derailed, so I thought I'd make a thread specifically to talk about discrimination issues that disproportionately affect men.
No Oppression Olympics here, okay? No saying "But that's not important because women suffer X which is worse!" And no discussing these issues purely in terms of how much better women have it. Okay? If the discussion cannot meaningfully proceed without making a comparison to male and female treatment, that's fine, but on the whole I want this thread to be about how men are harmed by society and how we can fix it. Issues like:
- The male-only draft (in countries that have one)
- Circumcision
- Cavalier attitudes toward men's pain and sickness, AKA "Walk it off!"
- The Success Myth, which defines a man's desirability by his material success. Also The Myth of Men Not Being Hot, which denies that men can be sexually attractive as male beings.
- Sexual abuse of men.
- Family law.
- General attitudes that men are dangerous or untrustworthy.
I could go on making the list, but I think you get the idea.
Despite what you might have heard about feminists not caring about men, it's not true. I care about men. Patriarchy sucks for them as much as it sucks for women, in a lot of ways. So I'm putting my keyboard where my mouth is and making a thread for us to all care about men.
Also? If you're male and think of something as a men's issue, by golly that makes it a men's issue fit for inclusion in this thread. I might disagree with you as to the solution, but as a woman I'm not going to tell you you have no right to be concerned about it. No "womansplaining" here.
Edited by nombretomado on Dec 15th 2019 at 5:19:34 AM
Regarding the death threats, just look up Erin Pizzey on wikipedia and subsequent sources. I'm not aware of other instances of this particular tactic but you will find loads of feminists minimizing male victims of domestic violence, even on this site.
"Stop making me hit you". I guess Erin Pizzey had it coming since she just wanted to usurp the work of feminists. Oh wait, she basically built that from the ground up and it was feminists who came in and claimed everything as their own.
That someone who is now an MRA started this all really doesn't fit into this world view.
I don't see why. It's not as if philanthropists or visionaries have never been batshit crazy before. Actually, you'd be surprised how many great figures in history were totally nuts and/or huge a-holes.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Wait, are you trying to say Erin Pizzey is insane? For wanting to help male victims of domestic violence? For being an MRA and opposing feminists after feminists literally killed her family dog?
Nope. I have absolutely no problem with that. I'm talking about all her inane rants on Reddit and other sites.
Care to give examples?
Edit: Also, how does Erin Pizzey making posts on reddit relate to her starting the first domestic violence shelter in the world?
edited 2nd Apr '14 3:15:19 PM by Mastah
See, the problem I see with that is that anything I link to pointing out how what she said was obviously stupid, you're most likely going to agree with 100%.
She's not so much an "MRA", as a staunch, bitter conservative. But I guess they're often synonyms.
edited 2nd Apr '14 3:21:03 PM by CassidyTheDevil
So you just wanted a convenient way to insult me. Gotcha.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Well, she did express her enthusiasm for banning feminism as a hate movement
, and then go into a lengthy rant about how unfair it is that women no longer have to marry men in order to have financial stability, which will apparently bring about the downfall of society.
I am constantly in the company of women in their late 30s and 40s who after choosing a career have decided they want children and marriage. I have to regretfully inform them that the present climate against men, they are very unlikely to have a relationship with a man and will probably never have children.
It's true. Nowhere is the problem more noticeable than Los Angeles, by the way, where men give themselves the right to date (meaning, they can have sex with as many women as they want at the same time)... very sad situation, but, why would they do anything else? The legal system can destroy them if they commit to a relationship.
C'mon, Cassidy, at least share the crazy with the rest of us next time.
edited 2nd Apr '14 3:29:44 PM by Iaculus
What's precedent ever done for us?
So basically you act surprised when a woman who got death threats from feminists acts out against the movement and put words into her mouth that she never said. Gotcha.
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
Stop the Gotchas. For your own sake. You are pretty much making an ass of youself by putting words into the mouths of others. And yes, hating an idea because of something humans did is a moronic ad hominem fallacy. Your basically saying that one can safely dismiss an idea when the proponents of said idea are douchebags. With that logic men's issues would have to be dismissed too.
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
Why do I get the feeling you're just here from some random MRA site and plan on contributing nothing useful to any sort of civilized conversation?
I guess I might have overdone it but Cassidy still threw a thinly disguised insult at me.
You all seem very keen on dismissing MR As, which would be an actual comparison. Feminism is not the same as women's rights. Somebody earlier in this thread even got so far that the people who opposed gender-neutral rape laws in India weren't feminists, they were women's rights activists instead. You can very much advocate for women's rights without calling yourself a feminist.
Edit: Because you like to make assumptions about people? I dunno, it's your problem.
edited 2nd Apr '14 3:39:58 PM by Mastah
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
'Course you can. But these people are usually not opposed to feminism as a whole just some ideas (transphobia was mentioned). That holds true between feminists as well.
MRA's on the other hand smear the whole feminist movement and it's ideas and achievements. The last part is very crucial. If an ideology proposes the equality of the sexes and you oppose that idea, your not for equality of the sexes. If men's rights activist truly cared about equality they would have joined feminism and offered constructive cricism and pointed out blind spots. Instead they fling around hate-filled take downs and see feminists as their main enemy instead of an ally. LGBT folks work with feminists. And so do those advocates who truly care about issues men face. Why can't MRA's? Because it's not about equality at all.
It's one thing to hate someone because they have different values than you. It's another thing to hate some broad, generic group of people because "they" did you wrong.
But pretending that the group one identifies with does no wrong, or that they are not culpable for their actions because they're on the side of "justice", while the "enemy" is pure evil that must be eradicated, is simply massive self-delusion.
The fact is, MRA groups regularly resort to the death threats and harassment that you hate the feminists for doing. Of course, it's not the same when they do it, right?
I don't care who calls themselves what.
But I do care when a movement with a name is advocating good ideas. I tend to support movements that do that, and for the most part feminists seem to have them. And, inversely, MR As have had more terrible ideas than good ones.
I don't care what label you use, but if that label is attached to a movement, then it's time to measure gains versus losses.
MRA criticism of feminism tend to be about everything but their supposed goal of equality. Both movements claim to be about equality and criticize the other for not doing it the right way, you don't get to say that one has exclusive rights to that concept.
I'm very willing to accept that MR As will make mistakes and actual MR As might be even more willing to do that. This can also be said about members of both groups.
There were some supposed death threats earlier in this thread but a) they weren't actual threats and b) they were anonymous, meaning the conclusion that a small movement was exclusively responsible instead of the many traditionalists who also oppose feminism is rather unreasonable. MR As also often publically denounce people who would resort to such things.
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
Sorry, but the MRA's claims that feminism is sexism in itself is in the same category as the white supremacist's claims of "reverse racism". There's a reason MRA's are more often on the political right while feminists are usually exclusively found on the left.
It's broken....
I couldn't help but notice the last two on the list.
The notion of “patriarchy” as something “by men, for men” rather than an overarching problem which affects men and women in relatively equal and opposite ways, caused originally by biological roles rather than any conscious choice by anyone.
Which strike me as extremely dangerous and misogynist half-truths.
Well, many of them are, but those two especially.
edited 2nd Apr '14 4:53:50 PM by KingZeal
It's broken....
Thank you.
Alright, for those who don't want to bother clicking the link, I shall post the list here for everyone to view. There is also a link that leads to a more in depth explanation of this list which I shall give here.
- Gross judicial inequity against men. (Being black raises the chance of incarceration after arrest ~20%, being male raises it over 150%. In addition, sentences are often up to 40% shorter for women than men, even for the same crime.)
- Gendered/sexed military service requirements. (I’ve got no objection to service requirements, but everybody has to be in line for the same thing.)
- Men accounting for virtually all workplace deaths.
- False accusations of rape which depending on the study range from few but problematic to absolutely rampant.
- De jure sexism in IPV (domestic violence) laws which apply different standards to men and women. (VAWA etc.)
- Cultural bias of “women as victims” leading to the belief that men can’t be raped or abused, let alone by women.
- Cultural prejudice against men operating in a child-rearing capacity whether in the home or workplace.
- De jure sexism in divorce courts, including the misuse of restraining-order laws originally intended to protect women.
- Sexism with regards to both child-support and alimony laws.
- Lack of judicial resources to combat paternity fraud, and lack of mechanisms for victims to remove improperly-applied CS Os and sue for reimbursement.
- Prejudices in (particularly early) education against boys and educational programs that consistently cater to stereotypically female styles of learning.
- Societal standards which simultaneously force men to approach women then condemn them for doing so.
- Societal standards which encourage or force men to financially support women without sensible cause.
- Acceptance of negative media portrayals of men, where such a portrayal would not be acceptable of a woman.
- Lack of good media role models for young men.
- Pressure on men to conform to stereotypes destructive to both themselves and others, whether that of the “good man” who subordinates himself to others or of the “bad boy” who engages in behavior harmful to himself and others.
- Disregard for the reproductive rights of men, and the attitude that consent to sex equals consent to procreation.
- The treatment of all men as potential or actual rapists, pedophiles et cetera.
- The current face of feminism that’s less about gender equality than it is about bashing men.
- The notion of “patriarchy” as something “by men, for men” rather than an overarching problem which affects men and women in relatively equal and opposite ways, caused originally by biological roles rather than any conscious choice by anyone.
Would you mind elaborating?
edited 2nd Apr '14 5:20:28 PM by Cylink
I like this. I think men are the best influences on other men and this is a good way to go about it.
"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
A procrastination in of itself
1 to 3 look good, 4 I want some stats on, as I have a feeling that the studies that call it "absolutely rampant." may not be the most honest of things, I'd like to check their numbers.
5 is fine, 6 is worded over confrontationally, why is it "Cultural bias of “women as victims” leading to the belief that men can’t be raped or abused, let alone by women." and not "Cultural bias of “men can't me victims” leading to the belief that men can’t be raped or abused, let alone by women."?
7 to 10 look okay but 11 is absurd, "stereotypically female styles of learning." is a crock of shit, every child learns differently and the idea that where is a "female styles of learning." smells funny to me.
12 to 14 are fine, to 15 my response is that we do have some good media role models, but them I'm a geeky guy who likes Bruce Banner, Peter Parker and Harry Potter.
On 16 I'm rather shocked by the idea that where is a widespread belief that guys should be a "“good man” who subordinates himself to others", this is something I've never encountered and if anything I've encountered a lot of backlash for not being an assertive ass(backlash mainly from other guys but not purely). Though I agree very much with the "bad boy" thing being a massive problem.
17 and 18 look fine to me, 19 just makes me laugh at the irony of such a statement (there is man-hate within feminism, but it's far from dominant).
20 I get the point of but it's horribly worded, it's like the person writing these is trying to force a fight against women rather than solve men's issues, I'd much rather something like "The belief that patriarchy is something that benefits all men and that is supported and aided by only men".
Wikipedia says "militant feminists" not feminists, not all of the later are the former...
Edit: ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
My first thought was "give her a blanket and pillow", though I'd comment that he should probs have tucked her arms in (they are gonna hurt in the morning if they hang all night) and that the cup of tea (I assume it's tea) is gonna be cold when she wakes up. But I'm just a pedantic little shit like that. 
edited 2nd Apr '14 5:51:11 PM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
The point still stands that feminists harassed her, I haven't stated and it's absurd to believe that every feminist ever wrote death threats to her. And this is something I specifically stated as one of the more extreme examples. Other feminists are problematic in other ways and I can't find more than a handful which accept the reality that men get victimized as often as women.
A lot of that attitude comes from a misunderstanding of how earmarked funds work. When there is funding for women's shelters and not men's the issue is how the funding laws are written. By just blaming this on feminists who wrote the laws by getting funding for their own causes and not men's causes the mrm are missing something vital.
You don't get funding without working for it and convincing people that it's needed. The MRM seems to think that if it just attacks groups that have funding when they don't that this will help them.
It won't.
All it will do is lose funding for both groups which is why femists fight back against it.
What they need to do is ignore the femists entirely and start with awareness that male victims are an issue. They spend too much time an energy on fighting a group that already did all the groundwork because they think that they can just steal their foundation in public consciousness easier than they can build their own and that's just not true.
They need to get their house in order and build a strong foundation before they're taken seriously. They need to show where the real problems are. Not just attack people who are working on solving their own issues.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick