The Problem with Protecting the "Sacred"

@Aon: I've yet to find a religion that I uniformly agree with. Even Buddhism is full of assholes.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

@DG - I'm so sorry those people had to go through that and that you had to witness it.

But trust me when I tell you, that's not how it goes up here in the Big Apple. I heard a group of people start laughing at a table when they spotted me praying over my meal.

I thought it was amusing, but I then I thought, "What would've happened if I was Muslim and they did that?"

Edit:

You know there are a lot of asshole bisexual women, but we like you. Seriously, it's not fair to expect everybody of any group to be all cool all the time.

edited 13th Jun '12 2:23:42 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor

Whether it's atheism or religion that's treated with less respect depends heavily on area; I think we can all agree upon that. (Where I live, I've never met another open atheist in real life; it's worse to say that you're irreligious than gay and that's saying something.) So if one poster says that the (ir)religious have it worse, another will simply pop up and proclaim that that isn't true.

This is one point on which there are few cut-and-dried statements to be made *

; bear in mind that the entirety of your experience may not be indicative of the state of the rest of the world.

Smile for me!

Where would we be if we didn't have Mura to share these revelations?

How ya doin' my dear?

It was an honor

You don't need to uniformly agree. And yes Buddhism is filled with assholes. As are atheists. Because people, by and large, are kind of assholish. To state so broadly that religion as a whole isn't worthy of respect because we are all or mostly assholes is, to me, offensive and somewhat misinformed.

Sadly you don't live near me so I couldn't show you my temple and the people there. Who are also rather friendly and supportive people regardless of one's religious or irreligious status. To the point where even an open atheist has been ordained for a time as a monk. We do our charity and helping of others together with those who aren't Buddhist because helping others is what we find to be right. Providing food and emotional support is good.

edited 13th Jun '12 2:28:02 PM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

It had undergone the sacrament of consecration at the hands of a priest before going in the guy's mouth. From what I remember, the person in question was teenager who was confused with questions of faith and not feeling well that day. It seemed like a situation where responding with compassion rather than rejection would be more appropriate, if I wanted to keep this person welcome in the Catholic fold. But I am not a Catholic anymore and I didn't understand it while I was, so keep that grain of salt ready. Good to see you understand that the death threats were out of line. Yes, I understand the significance of the Eucharist to Catholicism. I also agree with P. Z. Myers that there is no cracker anywhere that is so important that death threats are a fitting response to any disrespect of said cracker, regardless of what symbolic weight the cracker is given, and that more importantly that death threats in response to such a situation are a more dire problem than the violation of a symbolic ritual.

I'd also like to note that if the entire Catholic community of the region responded as you did (and they might have, I don't recall), that would mean that the person's entire social network and family could have abandoned him overnight.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.

To be fair, Aon, these discussions have made me realize that when someone like DG, Scrib, Lawyer, L Mage, or others disses religion, it's because they've suffered SO much because of people claiming to follow it. This his especially the case with Christianity.

I don't get upset when they say that because being fucked over and over by a group of obnoxious people erodes your ability to be objective.

That's why you and I are bringing civil back.

It was an honor

I do get upset when I repeatedly attempt to help clear up issues and even offer support yet get turned down and told that religious people are assholes.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

Aon, you act like I don't know the feeling.

But really, put yourself in their shoes. I get furious when I'm labelled a misogynistic homophobe no matter what I say and do, but even I know it's asking a lot to expect people who've seen a group of people waving around a specific book be violently homophobic and misogynist, and here comes this stranger on the Internet waving the same book being all like "Guys, let's hang out."

Remember when Paul stopped lynching Christians and became one? It was a little.....awkward....for him too.

Edit: Mura, I was kidding. Honest.

edited 13th Jun '12 2:34:48 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor

Still producing forum-shattering revelations, apparently.

Additionally, it appears that you may be confused about my biology.

Well, I am transgendered. Just thought you'd want to know.

edited 13th Jun '12 2:39:14 PM by Muramasan13

Smile for me!

You are a guy, in fact? Great, I call the girls guys, and the guys girls. I give up.

It was an honor

I checked the story on Wikipedia. If Wikipedia is correct, the student did not spit the Eucharist: he faked eating it, and brought it home as a souvenir. I need scarcely say that this is a major sacrilege: and even if for the sake of discussion the student had no idea of the Catholic beliefs on the issue, the fact that he apparently he resisted attempts of a church leader to have him return the host puts this into major asshole territory. Death threats were out of line; but that was not an innocent mistake, that was a guy showing casual disregard for the most elementary laws of courtesy and honesty.

And as for Myers: correct me if I am mistaken, but he did encourage people to steal and bring to him holy objects in order to desecrate them, right? Why the bloody fuck was he not charged for that?

Again, I would not send death threats to him either; but I am honestly disgusted that I am sharing a planet with such a person.

edited 13th Jun '12 2:40:56 PM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

We're bringing civil back (yeah)
These other tropers don't know how to act (yeah)
And angry ranting posts are really wack (yeah)
Good manners help us all and that's a fact (yeah)

Ah, I stand corrected on the details of the story. Thank you.

Actually, if he wanted to show it off to a friend, that's more along the lines of, say, going into a country and taking a tribal relic from the locals in bad faith, then bringing it back to put in a museum. Only considerably less heinous because of the lack of profiting off indigenous peoples. I mean, major sacrilege is only a problem if the object is sacred to you. What he did was inconsiderate, but frankly not deserving of what he got. It wasn't a hate crime and it sure wasn't kidnapping. Almost. He was not charged because he wanted to make sure that the people who were giving him this stuff were giving him their property to desecrate, not someone else's, and were doing so of their own free will. Sharing the planet with Bill Donohue and the guys who sent death threats disgust me a lot more. Myers is actually a pretty chill guy once you read up on him.

EDIT: Clarification, I edited in my response to Carcio after the following four posts were posted. I don't want to speak for anyone who may or may not approve of what this post became after I added this response.

edited 13th Jun '12 2:49:00 PM by RadicalTaoist

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.

And Taoist gets a Mo FW.

It was an honor

Yes it is a lot. Yes it is difficult to go through. That's how exposure therapy works. I have been calm, accommodating, and willing to provide aid only to be spit on multiple times however. I will continue to provide aid as that is proper.

I am merely asking that we stop, listen, and think. Which is occurring with Ex.

My repeated failure though I think speaks more on my part and my absolute failure at aiding others. I am a hideous failure. I must learn not to be a hideous failure. I must be like Guanyin. I need to stop and think.

I apologize if my lack of self worth and skill has offended anyone. I must go cry about failing in a corner and then calmly think on the manner. I am not good enough nor skilled. I must be and will be.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

@Aon:

The thing here, is that the way I regard religion is very similar to the way that I regard blatant hypocrites. Every religion purports itself to be Truth, and yet every religion has problems with it's membership. You would think that if, say, Buddhism really was the One And Only Way, there wouldn't be so many subdivisions that tell its members to be militant vegans, for example.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

Aon, I don't think it means you're a failure, just as it doesn't mean they're evil or spiteful people (though that Myers guy most certainly is).

It just means it's an opportunity for all of us to grow and learn. DG is cool with both of us, so you could say what we're doing is working.

It was an honor

... You know, I am torn between our shared view that it's just a cracker, and the fact that Myers was demonstrating that opinion in one of the most offensive ways possible.

Have to agree with you that while death threats are unreasonable, so is what he did in the first place.

Smile for me!

And?

Actions have consequences. If I am going to burn an American flag, I am not going to complain afterwards that the Americans don't like me much. And the comparison is far from exact: as you know, we don't hold the Eucharist to have a merely symbolic value.

This said, if he had apologized and attempted to make reparations, I suppose that he might have been forgiven eventually. But if you desecrate the holiest symbol of my religion, don't be surprised if afterwards I don't want to hang out with you.

edited 13th Jun '12 2:49:05 PM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

@Carc - Totally and completely agreed. This arrogant belief that everyone must accept and tolerate your shenanigans is distasteful. If you want to be a douche, don't be surprised at the consequences.

Again, you are applying, ironically, a really hypocritical view here. Like I said, there are bisexuals that are complete and total dicks. Like, they act like you're a moron for *gasp* being straight.

We don't judge you by them, regardless of how loud and overt they are in their dickdom.

edited 13th Jun '12 2:54:07 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor

No I am a failure. If I cannot inform, teach, and sooth the hearts and minds of everyone around me I have failed and am not at the level of perfection that I demand from myself.

As for the issue of veganism and vegetarianism in Buddhism...If anybody is confused on this matter there is this to clear up the matter and where it stands.

I don't think sectarian differences make something hypocritical. Nor do I believe that Buddhism is indeed the one, true, and only way or that there is one, true form of it. I currently lack sufficient evidence or reason to believe this. It is for myself, however. In particular a brand of Theravada Buddhism as close to the canon in both word and spirit as I can possibly manage.

edited 13th Jun '12 2:56:14 PM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

May I point out the War of the Golden Stool?

If you think that the Catholic feelings towards one consecrated Eucharist are less strong than the Ashanti feelings towards their sacred stool, you are mistaken. I do not approve of death threats; but people have allowed themselves to be martyred in order to preserve the Eucharist from desecration. I don't know if I would be strong enough to follow through myself; but if I had to choose between saving my own life and saving a particle of consecrated Host, the right choice would be obvious.

This is what that guy and Myers messed with; and it is not particularly surprising that I am less than amused by that.

edited 13th Jun '12 3:02:17 PM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

Based on what I know of Buddhism, it is precisely the laid-back and "I do not mind what you do, but here's what I believe" nature of Buddhism that leads to this kind of thing. Being militant anything in Buddhism is as counter intuitive as worshipping Satan in Christainity. It flies in the face of its "let go of mundane affairs" philosophy. A militant vegan claiming to be a Buddhist, to me, is no different from a man claiming to be an octopus.

You'll like Zoroastrianism.

edited 13th Jun '12 3:02:55 PM by IraTheSquire

@Starship: Except that sexual orientation isn't something that was created to provide moral guidance.

Any religion on the other hand, says that it's the One And Only Way, and that it's inherently Right, and that all others are Wrong. I've yet to meet a religious person who doesn't believe that their way is morally superior to all others. Even you go off on the "True Christian" thing.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

Well, Carc, in my opinion, getting upset with immature assholes like Myers is what they want. The way to beat them is to not play along.

They want to show up Christians, and religious people in general, as sensitive little paper cups that get riled up at the first sign of disbelief. I look at them and say "My conviction is so solid, your adolescent antics don't faze me in the least."

It was an honor