The Problem with Protecting the "Sacred"

I personally view religion in the same way I do some different, unusual culture with odd practices. I don't personally value it, but I respect it because it is of no benefit to insult people over it.

For me, it's not about protecting the sacred. It's about being civil and avoiding unnecessary conflict. Although death threats are markedly more serious than offending one's personal sensibilities, I still think Myers is in the wrong here to a lesser extent for being intentionally inflammatory.

Then again, I'm an apatheist. I can't muster up the fervor of an anti-theist because unlike them, I ultimately don't care.

Guess I'll join in. Spent the last hour or so reading the thread anyway. I'm somewhat surprised at how civil this has remained. Good job, everyone involved.

Re: Destruction of Communion Wafers Tantamount To Blasphemy- I admit, I'm a bit confused here. Even when I was somewhat religious, I was under the impression that communion wafers being the body of Christ was symbolic. It seems to me that it would be more blasphemous to destroy a Bible than a wafer, but it appears I'm mistaken. In any case, I do think intent matters.

Re: Stomping a Bible to Weed People Out- Context, history, and setting is key here. Gabe seemed to imply that the prof's used less extreme measures in the past, to no avail, in part, due to location. It's entirely possible that this is all that works to get his point across as he intends. While it's true that it may merely solidify some people's beliefs about "Liberal atheist socialist deviants," it's also possible for it to cause someone to question their own views. Possibly sitting down and talking it out calmly and reasonably didn't work out favorably before.

They lost me. Forgot me. Made you from parts of me. If you're the One, my father's son, what am I supposed to be?

A much better analogy would be if thousands of people organized to for the purpose of destroying the academic career of a young man because he said dogs are better than cats so I made a point of adopting a dog from the animal shelter instead of a cat the next time I was in the market for a new pet.

Because you see, I haven't actually hurt anyone if I destroy a religious artifact. In the case of communion I haven't even damaged something that can't be easily replaced. Even within the context of the religion I'm offending I haven't hurt anyone. Their god is infinite, immortal etc, and can't be harmed by my actions, and my actions in no way impede their ability to follow their religion as they see fit.

What we had in the original scenario is a bunch of people who felt they were entitled to persecute someone for disagreeing with their religious and metaphysical ideas. Since people like myself and presumably Meyers don't want to live in a world where we settle such things with violence and thought police there are limited options for retaliation. Throwing the fact that people do in fact disagree with their religious and metaphysical ideas at them until they get over themselves is one of a few options.

edited 14th Jun '12 5:03:28 PM by Paul3

Agreed: the major difference is the crowd that it is directed to: the people signing up for a course on various cultures and beliefs is a little different than a whole religious section of society that cannot be expected to have the same intent.

One can be expected to at least get that you might have a reason for doing this in front of them, even if their emotional response is high. The other? Not so much if you pull the same thing in front of them.

The problem is: you see a thing... they do not. Some people only see things when they look at animals. That is why I picked an animal as an analogue and not an inanimate object. Yelling from the rooftops that they shouldn't care about the symbol is not going to change the fact they patently do.

edited 14th Jun '12 5:11:23 PM by Euodiachloris

Except a cat is a living being, which an object is not. That itself questions the analogy.

The reason the object itself matters little to me is that it's just that; An object. What it represents is another story.

The Bible itself is just a piece of Literature. Whatever it says is what's important, not the paper it's written on. This is why I don't view the objects as anything more. I care about only what it represents.

And I understand why people disagree, but another thing to think about; If their intent is to destroy the literal object, they may also be showing that the object means nothing. If I saw a Priest rip a Bible in half... I wouldn't report them, unless it was Church-owned. But only for vandalism. You see, a Priest would not be ripping up the ideals to me. They'd be showing that what should matter is the teachings, not the text it's written on. This is similar to the Eucharist thing. The blessing is what matters, not the wafer itself. And so on.

Defacing an object screams vandalism to me at first. It is possible they may be doing it to diss God himself. But something to think about; You're complaining about the object being ruined. But then... how are they dissing God here? I see it as a failed attempt and not hitting God at all, just a man-made object itself that we put up as a gift to God. It's a destruction of a gift, not hurting God himself, basically.

Also, the reason I don't believe the Flag analogy fits is because burning a Flag is also considered terrorism, which is far more consequential than... dissing a person or object.

Quest 64 thread

How is stomping on somebody's national identity any worse than then doing the same to their religious one?

edited 14th Jun '12 5:10:14 PM by Euodiachloris

Your nationality is something you're born with. It's a true part of who you are.

You choose Religion. You may be taught it, but nobody is born a Christian. They become one.

In addition, a terrorist is far more dangerous than somebody who defaces a simple object. The flag itself represents the entire country/etc. Defacing that actually sends a far serious message, that you could be dangerous to the country.

Defacing a book... not even on the same level.

Quest 64 thread

@Irene: Burning a flag has only been considered "terrorism" in the past dozen years or so. It used to be a valid form of protest.

Regardless, I don't see why I should avoid using a Bible as kindling for my barbecue. To me, it's not any different than using a phone book.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

For myself it is much, much worse. My national identity could be something else. While it has shaped me I don't hold too much care or respect for it. What means a lot to me and what is perhaps one of the biggest parts of me is my religion. You can piss on my being American and I won't care. Pissing on my being Buddhist is much, much worse and much more personal and meaningful.

Being born as something doesn't make that "truly" me. Hell I don't even believe in the concept of "truly me". There isn't a "truly me". There never was and never will be and then I will die and what then? Will my "truly me" continue on? Will it have amounted to anything? No. Not in the slightest. My Buddhism isn't "truly me" either. It is what is destroying the very concept of "truly me" for me and I thank it every day for doing so.

Others feel differently. That is fine. I don't think either or is inherently the more important thing though.

edited 14th Jun '12 5:16:48 PM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

Agreed: however, doing silly things to the Eucharist? Man, that was, but stupid. The Bible is just wood-pulp that a few might be a little too attached to.

The Eucharist, even if you are an atheist, should be recognised to be a hands-off area, when it comes to other people's beliefs. There's sacred symbols and then sacred symbols.

Also: for some people, their religious identity is more important than their national one, as it is a part of their over-riding culture, or a choice they made for themselves. You might not choose where you're born: but, you should be free to choose what you believe. Trying to shake up another's ideas so they can make a valid choice is not the same as insulting them for kicks and giggles.

edited 14th Jun '12 5:18:14 PM by Euodiachloris

Why? My family's church used Hawaiian bread for communion. Does that mean that using a loaf of Hawaiian bread for other purposes is just as terrible?

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

That's still the Eucharist, whichever bread you use... <shrugs> Once it's been blessed... doesn't matter if it was the world's worst digestive biscuit in a charcoal coat.

Me, I couldn't care tuppence if you danced on blessed Eucharist. But, that's me. I'm not a Christian any more. But, I still very much understand why that was a sodding stupid idea.

edited 14th Jun '12 5:21:18 PM by Euodiachloris

Only if it's consecrated, DG. Which in some schools of thought doesn't make it symbolize Jesus but makes it both a wafer and Jesus. Not a symbol of him. But Jesus.

edited 14th Jun '12 5:21:26 PM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

I'd run far away from somebody who burned a flag. It's not the fire at all. But they scream dangerous to me. Especially without the context. Key term being the context.

If somebody burns a Bible... I'd question it instead. There must be a reason for that. Keep in mind I'm not referring to it being the only thing to burn if you need heat.

Nationality does far matter to me more than my Religion. But they also don't match up anyway. I believe them to be completely separate and not comparable, especially in the Flag analogy as well.

As I said... I just can't care about the object more than a human life. Or more than the teachings. What's funny about this is that I'd go more up in arms in somebody went and destroyed my Yu Gi Oh cards. Those are often irreplacable. A bible... I'd buy a new one, even make them do it due to vandalism. It's cheap and easy. But I can't buy the words and teachings themself. Those don't require a Bible, they require a person to teach them. We can think for ourselves without the object. It only helps. It should not dictate us, either.

Quest 64 thread

So it's whether or not it's been blessed that's important.

So, if PZ Meyer went online to buy communion wafers then what he did would be okay?

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

Hold on, burning or destroying a flag is a valid form of protest. The only crime that could be associated with it are destruction of property if it's not your flag, or creating a hazard by having an open flame.

It's not terrorism.

edited 14th Jun '12 5:24:59 PM by Talby

Um: Irene... I guess you don't understand the distinctions we're drawing here, right? For you, it's a book. For me, it's just a book. Easily replaced, yada. Same with a flag: go nuts... burn the Union Jack in front of me... <shrugs>

Not for everybody, it's not. And, pretending that it is, that it should be and that they're idiots for not thinking that is not going to make that so unless you're smart about it.

Choosing what symbols you decide to come down on is a lot more important than you think when you decide on iconoclasty.

Exactly, DG: had it been a box of bog-standard wafer, nobody would blink an eye: which is why he went for the sucker-punch.

edited 14th Jun '12 5:28:54 PM by Euodiachloris

Huh, now national identities. I could take you belonging to religion seriously, but frankly, I couldn't care less about your national identity. That's complete silly... <_<

Technically, humans are an invasive species...

edited 14th Jun '12 5:30:14 PM by TenTailsBeast

I vowed, and so did you: Beyond this wall- we would make it through.

Then that's you, Irene. Just you. Others feel differently and that's fine. I highly doubt you'll be able to convince Carcio otherwise and the thing is...you don't need to. Not in all cases or even most.

I myself value no object higher than life. Not "human" life, but life. That means that I, or at least should, value a cat at a level equal to a human. As well as an ant. All lives are sacred and of value and all living beings deserve as good a life as possible. One with the least amount of suffering. Which means I believe killing bugs and extermination to be a wrong unless there is absolutely no way to live in peace with the beings and they are harming or killing many other forms of life around them in a fashion that isn't natural. Thus making it something that must be done to further protect the well being of others. Your invasive species like rabbits in Australia are thus free game so as to preserve peace and a functioning environment.

So I'd leave a wasp's nest on my home and would cry foul if someone tried to kill the creatures.

edited 14th Jun '12 5:28:19 PM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

I really don't care if I convince anyone anyway. That's not my goal here.

I just can't take treating an item more seriously than the teaching itself as... serious, if you will.

I'm a Christian too. But I find more in protecting the teachings than the objects used to teach them.

Likewise, it's true that a Flag no longer represents that in general. But it still does to me. Why would you burn a Flag? What good reason is there? A protest? Of what? This is something that confuses me. It also speaks to me of a further horrid thing solely due to how much easier it is to get the entire country than... a much smaller group of people angry at you. Likewise, as I said, they're not that comparable as they represent completely different things. One represents your country. The other represents the teachings.

Actually, Aon, that's the thing; The animals and other creatures also are far more important than the objects. That I completely agree with. Which is especially why I don't believe burning a Bible is anywhere near the severity of hurting an animal or creature. Physically or mentally.

Don't get me wrong, of course burning a Bible in general is a dick move.(barring very specific circumstances)

edited 14th Jun '12 5:36:34 PM by Hydronix

Quest 64 thread

It's your right to believe in the sanctity of all life, but I'd call still you a dick for protecting the wasps if I were an allergic neighbor.

edited 14th Jun '12 5:36:39 PM by DrunkGirlfriend

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

Re: Flag burning- To show how deep your distaste for your country('s practices) run im such a way that does little or no harm to others. When it comes to showing disdain and hatred for a country, flag burning's probably the most extreme non-violent method there is.

They lost me. Forgot me. Made you from parts of me. If you're the One, my father's son, what am I supposed to be?

If you are allergic to the creatures then if you couldn't find some manner to live with them peacefully that wouldn't be seriously endangering your life I feel you would be justified in having someone destroy the nest for you. Though if it could be moved safely I would view that as the preferable option. That would be a hard thing to do that and possibly not at all worth it. So extermination by someone else would be your go to.

Ahimsa or no willingly endangering your life just isn't a good thing to do. Yes we should go for a method that won't result in the death of the other creature if we can but that's not always an option. Or a practical one.

Irene: And? Other people don't believe that and that's fucking fine so long as they aren't actively abusing another living being. I see no reason to complain. Perhaps discuss the matter out of curiosity but I don't really think it that weird nor something dumb.

edited 14th Jun '12 5:39:43 PM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

<shrugs> How is a country a big deal? (Says she who's lived in four, remained pretty culturally attached to Britain via England and has soft spots for the others.)

Don't get it. Sorry. Culture, yes: I understand that. Religion, I get, too. Language, yes: get that. Lines on a map? Nope: those can happen purely by historical accident (to each individual, or to the place)... It's the culture or cultures that happen in the country that're important. That a culture identifies with the land they're from, I get. Also, identifying with the flag... but... those are cultural identifiers.

Um. <flounders>

edited 14th Jun '12 5:42:34 PM by Euodiachloris

Careful, Aon, you have to remember to make it about the ideas and not the people. Or else you become this guy.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.