Black Panther

He’d probably be jailed at the end of the film then, but perhaps he wouldn’t choose death and T’challa might use him as a source of unofficial advisement.

I'd be totally fine with that. Except that last part.

Maybe make him a bit more honorable perhaps. Not having him kill his girlfriend would have been nice. Also, the fact that he mentioned that he killed many of his "brothers and sisters" makes him seem like a massive hypocrite. They also really could have turned down his bloodlust and genocidal tendencies throughout the film. It was almost like he took joy in killing all of the people that he murdered. And lastly, his personal vendetta should have been directed more at the system of Wakanda than the family members themselves.

Actually, I felt the brothers and sisters part made him more sympathetic. Erik is clearly ashamed and horrified by that action in what is probably the only thing that resembles guilt in his life. It's what makes his hate for Wakanda all the more with the reaction of, "Who cares" he gets.

edited 21st Mar '18 7:47:04 AM by CharlesPhipps

I maintain that the movie would have been vastly improved if he’d been more sympathetic.

It wouldn’t be hard either. Like the simplest change would have been to make him less obviously bloodthirsty . Throughout the movie he’s goes around with a shit eating grin when committing various crimes ( as do a lot of well intentioned extremists in movies like this) . Have him instead be someone who takes a “I did what I had to do” attitude. Remove the line about killing children obviously, and make it so that he doesn’t relish the thought of innocent people dying he’s just willing to write them off as collateral damage. Maybe even tone down his goals from “Take over the world and enforce our iron will “ and more “Use violence to force them to address these injustices” . Like he’s not going to destroy these countries so much as make sure the right people take control. Maybe he could try extending an alliance with M’Baku, “Wakanda cast me aside just like it did your people! Join me and we’ll make a more just world, starting with Wakanda !”

“He’d probably be jailed at the end of the film then, but perhaps he wouldn’t choose death and T’challa might use him as a source of unofficial advisement.”

I’d be on board with that. Him coming back as a Hannibal Lector figure would have been great.

No, he wasn't. He had no idea that there were any problems with the previous kings' policies. Yes, he was morally horrified by finding out the truth of what happened to Killmonger, but that was the product of having a dark side to his nation that he'd never considered before thrust in front of him. Had Killmonger never shown up, T'Challa would have gone right on never even considering the possibility of such an issue.

Killmonger's past was for T'Challa what the reveal of Stark weapons in terrorist hands was to Tony or the discovery of Asgard's colonial past was for Thor. He already thought it was a bad thing, but he also thought that his faction was beyond reproach, so the idea that their policies led to such indefensible horror made him sit down and really think about the positions he's been enthusiastically supporting for the first time.

There is no conversation in the world harder than, "Hey guys? Are...are we the bad guys?"

That would probably have been the end of it, though.

"Wow. What happened to you was really awful. But you are Wakandan by blood, so you deserve a place among us. Welcome to Wakanda."

No policy change, no real consideration for Wakanda's place in global society. Killmonger gets a home and Wakanda goes right on being Wakanda.

Which is why Killmonger did it the way he did it. He wasn't looking to be let into Wakanda. He was looking to change the world. He ultimately succeeded in doing so by tearing down Wakanda's sacred norms and convincing Wakanda's true king that their traditions are straight-up wrong, but not in the way he wanted to.

Killmonger is one of those messy historical figures where he did a lot of bad stuff and he wanted a lot of worse stuff but the world is better off for it having happened.

edited 21st Mar '18 7:54:09 AM by TobiasDrake

What the heck? At this point is like saying that Terrorist groups did the right thing.

Killmonger wanted cause a freaking race war, the only difference of note was that he was Black. His plan was absurd from the go.

Also, the "dark side" of Wakanda is simply don't starting Aid missions around the world because they want to keep out guys like Klaw from stealing their vibranium. How evil for them! (Don't get me wrong, is good that Wakanda left its Isolation)

edited 21st Mar '18 8:13:30 AM by KazuyaProta

The dark side of Wakanda is allowing global atrocities that they could have prevented to go unchecked. This is literally the moral of the single greatest atrocity in human history: the Holocaust happened because everyone who could have done something went, "Yeah, but guys, I don't want another war. Maybe if we let Hitler do his thing, everything will be fine. Let's just see how this plays out."

Isolationism is one of the greatest philosophical villains in world history.

EDIT: Another great philosophical villain in world history, nationalism, deserves a mention here too. Prior to the events of Killmonger's foiled revolution, Wakanda is a nationalist state. They look to themselves as superior to the rest of the world, turning their back on global events because anyone who's not Wakandan doesn't matter.

They even have their own disenfranchised minority group, the Jabari, who live in exile and are hated and feared by the Wakandan majority tribes. Because just because you hate all foreigners doesn't mean you can't also hate people different from you in your own borders too.

EDIT EDIT: It also warrants noting that this film could not be more perfectly timed, coming out at a time when the United States is wrestling with issues of isolationism and nationalism of its own. The film is pretty clear in its message that turning your back on the world outside your borders and treating "outsiders" with scorn and distrust is a bad thing to do.

edited 21st Mar '18 9:05:03 AM by TobiasDrake

That "dark side" is practically meaningless compared to the real dark sides of real countries. That is why I have issues with seeing it as actually 100% evil. Is certainly problematic, but I cant say that is EVIL.

What? No, Hitler wanted war, he loved war. The Holocaust was part of his many, many crazy ideas.

There the issue that in this case, Wakanda IS superior. Why do you think that acussations of Mary Suetopia exist? Plus, they have living arround several types of colonialism happening arround them, them wanting to be separated from that shit is hardly a villainous thing.

Trust me, I like that T`challa decided start his humanitarian aid plans, but Wakanda is hardly villainous for not want nothing to do with the crap that happens outside.

The plan of Killmonger is not "messy", is total nuts.

edited 21st Mar '18 9:22:24 AM by KazuyaProta

“This is literally the moral of the single greatest atrocity in human history: the Holocaust happened because everyone who could have done something went, "Yeah, but guys, I don't want another war. Maybe if we let Hitler do his thing, everything will be fine. Let's just see how this plays out."

Speaking of the Holacaust, ....boy howdy is that topic gonna be hair raiser at the U.N for T’Challa. Israeli Rep. “ So... did your complete technological superiority exist in like the 40s ? Does that mean you guys just let the Holacaust happen ?! You’re worse than the Swiss !”

“That "dark side" is practically meaningless compared to the real dark sides of real countries“

Conversely that’s my problem here. The effects of Wakanda’s flaws are... lower than what they should logically be which clashes with the realistic look at world history. Like how the Iron Man movies start with actually tearing the military industrial complex a new one...and then treat an emotionally damaged billionaire building an arsenal and personally fighting terror in the Middle East as awesome.

edited 21st Mar '18 9:27:17 AM by thatindiantroper

Here's one article from a Killmonger was right perspective and 100% serious.

https://www.iol.co.za/news/opinion/weve-been-duped-black-panther-is-anti-revolution-13395830?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social

You weren’t duped, the movie is obviously anti - revolution.

And that is the issue of the author, because he believes that the solution of the issues of racism is starting a war against white people, because starting race motivated wars is the answer.

(I am a Peruvian latin american, so dont call me a privileged white, maybe privileged male straight, but not white)

Yeah, In BP, Isolationism is bad because it means that you are selfish and protect yourself from the external world while you let suffer for their own.

The issue is that real isolationists actually are totally fine with that. Most of them want to be the Wakanda as despicted in Black Panther. That is why you heard things as "BP is Alt-right", because the Wakanda in BP is pretty much how they want to be.

The issue is that Isolationism causes issues to the country that isolates itself, even more than the countries that they "abandoned".

edited 21st Mar '18 9:33:50 AM by KazuyaProta

I know, I’m just saying the movie didn’t pull a fast one on you, this was really obvious.

It was obvious this was the direction it was going down since first trailer.

Isolationism is also bad in other ways. It harms the country doing it too.

edited 21st Mar '18 9:33:23 AM by thatindiantroper

I said that, in a Isolationist country, the most damaged one is the one that isolates itself.

Real Isolationists actually would LOVE Wakanda as despicted here, a country where the people live in peace with few internal conflict (besides the Jabari, and even that is because they isolated themselves) with no dirty inmigrants coming to destroy their glorious peaceful perfect culture.

edited 21st Mar '18 9:36:41 AM by KazuyaProta

There's a lot of interesting parallels to the fact that Killmonger if you made him sympathetic wants to make Wakanda into....America.

The Global Police America.

Intervening and stopping bad guys while promoting local revolutionaries FOR GREAT JUSTICE because that works so well!

Super rich, super-military place which prospers if isolated too also fits other narratives.

edited 21st Mar '18 9:39:46 AM by CharlesPhipps

This time is from Africa! The African Revenge

I mean, I come for a country whose dictatoships (excepting the leftist one, of course) where all supported for the USA.

Seriously, I wonder if South America can have its own "Black Panther", a movie that adresses the damange that Imperialism and colonialism have done to the region.

edited 21st Mar '18 9:46:56 AM by KazuyaProta

Woulda been great if someone bought that up to his face.

“So you want us to act exactly like the country you hate ?! Black Man’s burden ?”

“That’s different! I ACTUALLY want to help people ! They were all just using that shit as an excuse to grab land !”

Add some Wakandian leader that actually want to grab land and I am sold.

Now I just want Black Panther 2 to open with Killmonger resurrected in a lab and locked away.

"Oh, I'm sorry, you thought we couldn't do that?"

"I mean, you were dead for only minutes and your body was pretty much in a decent state, you were lucky"

And Honestly, Yeah. He also could work as the Token Evil Teammate against guys like, dunno, Hunter/White Wolf?

Also, if we really want push the narrative of "the Dark side of Wakanda", White Wolf is a excellent villain, leaded the Hatut Zeraze

edited 21st Mar '18 9:55:53 AM by KazuyaProta

I’m pretty sure they won’t resurrect him but they could always have him cameo at the Ancestral Plane.

A lot of Killmonger's backstory is actually Hunter's. He's a Wakandan extremist, though, rather than an American.

You could use him as another sign T'Chaka was an asshole, though. Basically raising the kid with the idea the only way he could contribute to Wakandan society is being their secret police/murderer for hire.

edited 21st Mar '18 9:58:15 AM by CharlesPhipps

There was a funny moment in the Christopher Priest run where T'Challa is recovering from Killmonger kicking his ass to take the role of Black Panther from him.

He's in his office, trying to do king work and everyone keeps coming in to complain and bother him and ask him to do stuff. Even Killmonger and White Wolf. Just some nemeses hanging around his office when he's trying to do paperwork.

It would have been even funnier if M'Baku had been there but I think he was locked up in a super secret jail at the time.

Nah, Killmonger is fan of the idea of a Pan African identity, Hunter is a Wakandian nationalist. Those are very different things.

I mean, I dont want to go full "Oh, T Chaka was SO EVIL, FUCK OLD MEN" (that is boring). I want that the moral responsability falls in Hunter himself.

I want go for the angle where Hunter believes that he is the Mighty Whitey, the foreigner that somehow manages to be better than the natives at being native.

Plus, a critic to things like Secret policies and the likes

edited 21st Mar '18 10:02:09 AM by KazuyaProta