Rise of Moe in Japanese Media (Anime included)

No, I didn't say that.

And gauging a character's popularity (which is what "moe" appeal can boil down to) won't tell you about what their popularity is based on. There's also the fact that asking us what we like about characters won't tell you what the Japanese find appealing about the character. And I assume they're the one's you are asking about.

I'd like to ask you a question to see what you feel about moe, before I answer another one about which ones I like:

Are there any "moe" characters that appeal to you?

Partial. I can like a moe character. But when other fans just won't shut up about that character at expense of other character I like, who happens to be NOT moe, that's when I get a bit iffy.

Or do you mean "Tell you an example of a moe character I like"? Well, in that case, gimme time to think of one. Because my tendency of favorite characters tend to be those who are more mature and sophisticated (and mostly blessed with well-developed body) these days.

edited 30th May '12 9:02:27 PM by ChrisX

Any specific examples would help.

Having out of context quotes doesn't really tell me how you feel about moe, except that you feel your tastes are marginalised.

Almost sounds like a Hype Backlash thing.

It's often better to ignore fandoms you find obnoxious. And enjoy what you like about the work/character for what it is.

Obviously there is a tradeoff with not being able to discuss it. But then you can always find better places to discuss a work.

For instance, those two lines seem a bit like creepy gushing about breasts, so if anyone said that here, they'd probably be told to head over to the fetishes thread.

edited 30th May '12 9:10:06 PM by UltimatelySubjective

... Since we're treading with a dangerous thread here, I think I'll PM you a bit, US.

I was wondering how this discussion would pan out. Seeing the direction it went in, I have nothing constructive to add.

So I'll just leave this here instead:

I do think that there's a difference between popularity and moe.

Why look, over in the Type Moon thread Five X posted a popularity poll which Ryougi Shiki was at the head of, and some people said that a knife-wielding schizophrenic with powers of death wasn't moe. Tch. Looks like Heroines also tend to score higher too.

I understand the reason you said Japanese media in the thread title now though Chris X, since you had a video game character in mind for this.

... Oh wow. That stuff I said about Sakura turned out to be out of date. Damn it Carnival Phantasm.

Oh and that stuff I said? It kinda extended to some anime. In particular, Nanoha...

Also when I talked about moe with a good friend I had, he described moe to be... "mostly encompassed the cute, young (Like 10-18 Range) girls who are all cutesy and shy and whatnot."

Was that a definition of moe?

edited 31st May '12 12:32:27 AM by ChrisX

Are you talking about the GameFAQs message boards? I'm going to assume you are. The important thing to keep in mind on those boards is that every single thing anyone says is a form of calculated social posturing. They're trying to establish a pecking order by making themselves out to be savvier than everyone else. Which leads to this rather odd mixture of making fun of hypothetical others and ironically adopting the same ideals that are being made fun of, to stay ahead of the curve. Posting on GameFAQs (or whatever other forum you might be thinking of that has a similar culture) is an aggressive act and their language reflects this.

These are extremely complicated social rituals, that you're only looking at the surface meaning of. Take them much less literally.

edited 31st May '12 1:19:01 AM by Clarste

While I do hear that in Game FAQS majorly, there are other communities aside of the usual forbidden ones like those image boards that must not be named that occasionally follow such stuffs. Though mostly limited in 1 user and just taking it as a joke to promote their love for their favorite girls who just happens to be flat-chested.

So is the question basically, "Why are flat-chested girls becoming more popular than big-breasted girls in anime?"

Thinking that characters need to be flat-chested to be moë is like thinking action heroes have to be unshaved and wearing a bandana to be badass. It's a far wider concept.

If you are talking about Lolicon fetishes, they do overlap with moë but they are not the same. It's true that not-quite-adult girls form the most obvious and prominent band of such characters, but a lot of the moë fandom like them for their neotenous cuteness and childish innocence, and are not comfortable with sexualised depictions. (This "innocence", a sense that these characters have not been worn down by the troubles of the world, is perhaps the best defining trait of moë.)

And really, breasts should not come into this discussion except as a part of an overall body type, and it still has to be acknowledged that it would be only one brand of moë. Neoteny is what marks "moëblobs": big eyes, big irises, large head, small hands, mouth and nose barely visible.

(Personally I don't like either big, bouncing breasts or completely flat chests, and unfortunately animé has little in between, in part because it's easier to draw. I much prefer the women of Roger Leloup. I'll leave it at that.)

And while moë series are usually all-girl casts, I consider it rather lazy; boys can evoke the sentiment fine, just look at Axis Powers Hetalia.

Which makes me wonder: What if the nation-tans were all teenage girls?

You know the real irony? Up until the rise of moë, most shonen series, like American superhero comics, had mostly male casts, with women usually being marginal love interests or token fanservice. Now we have series like Strike Witches with all-girls or Ben To with one boy surrounded by girls. So when a new series has a mostly female cast, it is assumed they are eye candy aimed at (male) otaku, regardless of other aspects. So a show following the old pattern would probably be assumed to be less sexist.

(The Trope Repair Shop is looking at a trope about a pattern seen in The Smurfs, where the male cast is given character traits, while the lone female is thought to be distinct simply by gender. These shows, even if not actual harem genre, seem to reverse this.)

And the crowning irony is that today we have shows in shonen style, with an all-male cast, but with the difference that they are all of a bishounen aesthetic (old shonen tended to have them either more rugged and manly, or teenagers since they were aimed at that demographic). These, it can be safely assumed, are aiming at least in part for the female otaku, the fujoshi.

You know, it isn't like there aren't plenty of Shoujo works that are dominated by male characters. Teenage girls want to look at hot guys and teenage males want to look at hot girls, for whatever defintion of "hot" they may be using.

And there is nothing wrong with that.

And as tempting as it is we should be careful not to use the word "moe" to describe series and characters we don't like.

In almost all cases moe can be used to describe characters you like too.

Plus it can lead to pointless definition wars.

Magical Girl series always had a male following and the studios knew it (take a look at Sailor Moon's Transformation Sequence) but it took until relatively recently for the likes of Lyrical Nanoha to be aimed at the demographic specifically. Not sure why it took so long. But there's a knee-jerk reaction in much of the online animé fandom against anything looking like it panders to otaku, and the irony is that it's most often all-female casts that are described as mysoginistic (which they can be, no question) and genuinely dodgy ones like Gurren Lagann with mixed-but-not-quite-equal casts are ignored.

edited 31st May '12 3:15:35 PM by RJSavoy

Very true. Get together ten moë fans and you'll get twelve different definitions. Get together ten moë haters and you'll get another twelve.

Okay, perhaps saying about flat chest is wrong.

However, in some series, undoubtedly if they have more than 1 female character, they will fall in either 'cute' category and 'sexy' category. The cute ones have big chance to be considered 'moe'. While the sexy one... not so much. Thus the cute ones usually tend to enjoy more publication while the sexy ones aren't.

The question I have is that in question of pandering, it's more likely that those in 'cute' category gets more pandering while the 'sexy' ones not so much. What seems to be the reason behind this? Was it because there's less market for pandering the 'sexy' ones?

edited 31st May '12 5:43:25 PM by ChrisX

Cuteness is appreciated more in Japan. That answersyour question.

"Pandering" is the second most meaningless term used in the anime fandom. What do you mean by it this time?

In jokes that include a blonde, a brunette, and a redhead, why is the redhead always smart and the blonde always dumb?

The obvious answer is that they are drawing from cultural elements (in this case, relatively harmless stereotypes) to create a broad understanding.

This is the same as what you're asking. In Japan, smaller busts are normal and larger busts are unusual. As a rule, normal appeal tends to outweigh niche appeal.

edited 1st Jun '12 2:57:47 AM by Savoie