Is sex a sin? If so, why aren't people repenting?

Depends on the temperament of the people involved, as well as finding something both partners mutually like.

Making up for bad sex with cunnilingus doesn't help if the partner hates cunnilingus.

You're acting as if you can't even talk about this stuff if you don't actually have sex until you're married. In a healthy relationship, people do talk about sex.

That's overly simplistic. Everyone in a relationship holds a little of themselves back. You never tell someone everything about yourself, whether it's that you secretly like to smell your own farts, if the sight of blood turns you on, or if you find yourself secretly attracted to your best friend (even if you don't plan to act on those feelings). And even then, you may have tendencies that you yourself don't notice and, thus, can't talk about. Or, you can change.

This is especially true when you have no experience to draw off of. You have no idea what you like and don't like—only a general idea of what turns you on.

Here's a hypothetical situation—a guy is in a serious relationship with a girlfriend and she's a staunch Christian homophobe. Until recently, he's been the same way, but he recently got turned on by the idea of a MMF threesome. In casual conversation, he mentions to her that it might be fun, and she sternly replies that she couldn't be with a guy who used her like a piece of meat for his own sinful fantasies and drops the conversation.

So what does he do? Break up? Try to talk her into it? Drop the idea because he loves her?

edited 22nd May '12 5:46:33 AM by KingZeal

@Inferno: Unfortunately sex is a lot more complicated than "practice". I've seen marriages fall apart because both people were utterly submissive in bed and both were massively uncomfortable with taking the lead, despite both wanting the other to be more dominant.

I've never been married, but I've certainly dumped guys I was very much in love with because they were using sex as a tool to manipulate and control me. I have also dumped guys for going the slut-shaming route when they discovered that women (specifically me) do indeed have a libido.

Honestly, I'd rather have stuff like that come out when you can still break it off without hiring a lawyer.

Do not underestimate libido issues. Particularly those those change over time. I've seen marriages die because He's-Mr-Once-a-Fortnight-If-I'm-Lucky (bitter complaint about lack) and She's-Madam-Three-Times-a-Week-If-I'm-Not-Careful (it'll do my back in).*

When either or both take their needs outside with even a small degree of spite (and even less actual talking about it without sniping) even once... well, say hello, decree nisi.

edited 22nd May '12 7:24:46 AM by Euodiachloris

If it's something he's not willing to drop for her sake, then yes, they should break up. That scenario sounds exactly like the kind of ticking time bombs that littered my college dorm. The ones that didn't explode on everyone around them were the ones discussed and confronted before there's three seconds left on the display and a garage full of fireworks packed around it.

edited 22nd May '12 3:40:04 PM by Pykrete

Well, that's the whole thing: how long do you "drop it for their sake" before it becomes the time bomb that blows up?

He means break up, not drop the subject.

EDIT: Reading fail. I think he's trying to get at that if it's not something that he's gonna just forget about and if it's really that important, it's better just for them to break up.

edited 22nd May '12 3:58:05 PM by 0dd1

I meant give up on that prospect or drop the relationship. "Is girl worth not boning a dude? (Y/N)" sounds like a good place to start, and avoiding said question by just back-burnering it and hoping it magically solves itself somehow is a good way to set your house on fire.

edited 22nd May '12 4:05:31 PM by Pykrete

You pretty much said there what I meant to say before but couldn't find the adequate words for.

And that's exactly it.

You are specifically falling into the trap of the situation. Let's assume she is worth not bringing it up again. So he doesn't. So...for starters, we just failed the "you can always talk about it before the relationship" issue. This is specifically a part of his sexuality that he is not allowed to talk about or explore with his girlfriend (and possibly future wife) because she doesn't want to talk about it.

But let's assume that example isn't good enough because...y'know, threesomes are nasty and lustful and something not serious enough for any loving couple to break up over. Okay, fair enough. Let's use a better example.

Let's say a guy watches porn. LOTS of porn. All to compensate for the fact that he is abstinent. Watching porn has broken down a lot of his inhibitions, so he is perfectly cool with almost anything. Including anal sex, oral sex, BDSM, role play, toys, exhibitionism, voyeurism, and just about everything in between. Anyway, this guy's best friend is a girl, and she's had a crush on him for a long time. She's also a virgin, and saving herself for marriage. One day, she tells the guy how she feels and he expresses an interest in dating.

The two of them get along great—same interests, similar political leanings, same religion, same interest in family goals. But, it turns out that she's not very interested in porn, and watching it just makes her feel uncomfortable. She thinks all of the weird crap listed above is weird, and the very idea of them make her squeamish due to common popular misconceptions. So, he tries to bring them up, or at least try to get her to read some erotic stories with him. It just makes her feel weird.

He tries this for three years, and nothing seems to stick. And after three years of dating, she's wondering if he's ever going to pop the question to her. He is in love with this girl. Their relationship is just fine otherwise, but he's somewhat unsure because she's still so squeamish about sex that she doesn't even like showing off her legs in public. He wants the relationship to work, but he's not sure how to get her to open up about it.

So what does he do?

edited 22nd May '12 4:16:53 PM by KingZeal

"Is this girl worth my porn fantasies? (Y/N)"

You appear to be conflating "consciously deciding to let it go" with "not bringing it up again and hoping for the best". You're also assuming the only healthy relationship is one where you either conveniently share all your kinks or play along with them. I can tell you my parents don't (and as a result there are parts of my brain I want to take a rusty bleach-soaked spoon to), but they've got one of the toughest and most supportive relationships I've ever seen regardless.

It's wrong to say relationships are built on compromise; they aren't, though it can happen. Every couple will have jagged edges. Sometimes, believe it or not, the parts that you spend the other 165 hours of the week doing are worth a subpar sex life.

None of that was what we were discussing though. It was asked "doesn't physical attraction equal sexual compatibility" and "can't you talk about your sexuality if you're abstaining before marriage".

The point to my allegories is that if you assume there's some things you keep to yourself, then there's bound to be a sexual incompatibility that you don't discuss.

Has nothing to do with whether the relationship fails or not.

edited 22nd May '12 4:44:56 PM by KingZeal

I thought the point was "you can talk about sex before having it." Which both people in your hypothetical situations did, and both resulted in clear information for the dude to act on one way or another.

"Talk about" is not the same as "hint at" or "bring up and immediately drop", which is what happened in my scenarios.

Both of these happened to people I know, btw.

They did talk about it. They got a "no". It happens.

Again, that does not count as "talking about" if it's a long-term relationship.

Only if your definition of "talking about" reduces to "browbeat her until she either reluctantly accepts or snaps". If she's not cool with X, that's an answer. A very clear one.

edited 22nd May '12 4:52:52 PM by Pykrete

@Pykrete: Well, no. From how I was reading it, she snapped at him the moment he brought it up, and there was no actual discussion that resulted. If my partner is strongly against something that I'm into, I'd like to understand why, instead of just being told to drop it.

edited 22nd May '12 4:54:46 PM by DrunkGirlfriend

What DG said.

Dropping a topic your partner brings up just because it bothers you isn't any better than a "browbeating". At some point, an actual conversation needs to take place and some sort of agreement (whether to be convinced, set a course of action, or put the nail in the idea for good) needs to be reached.

edited 22nd May '12 5:06:05 PM by KingZeal

Well neither of those examples are really a healthy relationship. Making demands in either direction is a no-no.

I guess I'm failing to understand why you'd need a long drawn-out academic dissertation to tell your boyfriend something you summed up in two letters. I mean in the context you gave, her reasons are frankly pretty damn obvious and don't need exposition, and trying to say it does comes off as a passive-aggressive attempt to get her to come around to your kinks. That seems like an even worse powder keg than not sharing the kinks in the first place.

Demands, no, but a healthy relationship will respect lines drawn.

edited 22nd May '12 5:10:29 PM by Pykrete

@Pykrete: Is it obvious? There are ways to have a MMF threesome without engaging in homosexual behavior, after all.

And yet, this happens more often than it doesn't.

Because relationships don't survive on two letters?

edited 22nd May '12 5:19:24 PM by KingZeal

@Pyk: Point taken.

@DG: The thing is, not everyone wants to have a threesome regardless of that.

I still wouldn't consider it healthy. Just because it happens more often than not doesn't mean it's healthy. People scream at each other in anger more often than not or hold things in passive-aggressively more often than not, but neither of those are healthy.