LGBTQ+ Rights and Religion

"Joe, it wouldn't hurt you to drop the attitude."

After you, my friend.

edited 3rd Jan '14 12:37:00 PM by joesolo

How about everyone just starts being nice to each other?

edited 3rd Jan '14 12:47:32 PM by Silasw

that'd be nice.

I've been to a lot of churches in my life. I've looked into the hearts of them. I live in the area where you are most likely to find anti-LGBT sentiment. What I've found is that by in large, churches tend to really love people, even those who they consider sinners. The ones that don't tend to be the exception rather then the rule.

Where are you from?

South GA, and currently Atlanta.

Where else in the southeast have you lived?

A couple different places, mostly south GA though. I've been to church in Dixie long enough to get to know the hearts of the people there.

edited 3rd Jan '14 2:23:49 PM by soban

Talk about knowing a fair bit when you've 1) grown up with an Anglican mother; 2) a (not-very-enthusiastic) British Methodist father (and his family: quite a few much more enthusiastic — some in the Sally Army); 3) seen Southern African Anglicanism, Evangelicalism, Methodism and Baptism at close quarters (the Baptist and Evangelical movements pushed in primary school) — and 4) then moving around Europe for a bit, getting to grips with the Old Devils of Catholicism (Switzerland — well, the bit I was living in) and High Anglicanism (secondary school). [Just a small, dark joke, Joe: remember — the crap that got pushed at me in primary? Yup: the only thing worse than a Catholic in the eyes of those peddling that were actual Witch Doctors who they equated with Satan — oh, and those into Roleplay Games. Obviously. ]

Then you get a handle on different denominations, mate.

edited 3rd Jan '14 3:26:50 PM by Euodiachloris

Georgia is an interesting place because it has the highest number of active chapters for the League of the South and is possibly tied for the highest amount of Council of Conservative Citizens affiliates.

You do have some branches of the KKK, (both the Traditional Knights KKK and the KKK ltd. are headquartered in Arkansas) but mostly it is white supremacy or black supremacy groups. Understandable with Georgia's history. However to get an idea of the amount of religiously founded or religiously motivated problems one way is to measure how many groups are affiliated with the Christian Identity Movement. That includes things like Creativity Movement, (formerly known as the World Church of the Creator), Phineas Priesthood, Crusaders for Yahweh, and the Covenant People's Ministry.

There are also several different anti-Islamic groups that also target LGBT people. Most withcolorful names like Islam: The Religion of Peace One Body at a Time.

But these groups are the ones that give money to causes such as the atrocities in Uganda, domestic terrorism, arming the Georgia Militia and other more interesting domestic groups.

Another thing these organizations are really good at is political contributions and voter rallies.

This the the extreme. But there is enough of one extreme that it tilts the scales in personal opinion because it helps add to an atmosphere where complacency with hate is fine. (Note: Arkansas, Louisiana, Texas, Oklahoma, and Mississippi have higher rates of Christian Identity sympathizers than say Florida or Georgia which is mainly secular racial. The Carolinas and Virginia are mixed better.)

Ok, Almost of them have at their core of loving people. No matter what ones I went to. Even the church that kicked me out was at it's core, loving. Whenever I hear that someone had a bad experience at church and it turns them away, it annoys me because I know there are good churches out there. It very much annoys me when someone generalizes to all churches. Especially the denomination I currently serve with. I don't deny that there are jerks. Every church I've been to has had jerks. Don't think they are being mean when they tell you the truth about the sin in your life. They are doing it because they care. One of my teachers told me once that the worst thing someone who truly loved you could do is ignore sin in your life. If you don't think it's a sin, fine. But don't expect them to agree.

There is the problem: no one is asking you to change your beliefs. It would be nice, but that is not my priority.

The goodness of one congregation, as wonderful and joyous of that is, doesn't negate the reality that not everyone who carries the label of Christian is that nice.

It is the hateful ones that we need to target and lessen. I don't mind if someone thinks I am going to hell. I mind those who feel the need to go out of their way to tell me I am or to make my life hell.

My own brother is one of those fire and brimstone ones. This is how I tried to explain it to him:

Jesus didn't say to judge, he said to love.

There is a big difference between a Christian saying, "I'm concerned over some of your life choices and I am here to help" and then "Gays are going to hell and you need to respect my right to tell you so. Fuck your feelings!"

Which attitude is more "Christian"? Which attitude do you want people to think of when they hear Christian? I would prefer people to look on Christianity as loving. But for that to happen, the moderates need to speak up and those who use the label of Christianity need to be called to check.

Ah, I see the problem. The Christian you know best is one of the Fire and brimstone types, so that's gone and colored your view of the rest of us. The vast majority of us aren't like that at all. Some are, sure, but there's also angry Buhhdists, Taoists that love beef, pagans, ect.

The problem isn't us, it's the people who go and see a few people's actions and take them for the whole group. Much like Racists.

edited 3rd Jan '14 4:14:18 PM by joesolo

I'd say the real problem is discrimination, not "those damned oppressed minorities are so unreasonable".

Joe. I study religion. I have a BA in Religious Studies and Art History. My Masters work was in interreligious relations and religious terrorism.

I am probably your biggest ally when it comes to being pro religious and religious freedom.

I am not colored towards anyone. I have a very realistic view of faith and its problems. That's why I made my life's work to help solving these problems.

Think of all the world's religions arrayed together as a beautiful garden. All the faiths have their own beauty and can be capable of great wonders. Scholars like me are the gardeners who work on treating the ailments and removing the weeds who are ruining it for everyone.

If you're not actively harming people, including other Christians, I am not talking about you. If you are part of the very vocal or passive discriminate groups, then yes. I will throw all my efforts into shutting you down for the good of the whole.

Stop trying to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

I don't put much value in degrees. I know too many really bright people without them, and too many with them that don't contribute much.

"Scholars like me are the gardeners who work on treating the ailments and removing the weeds who are ruining it for everyone."

That's an awfully romantic view when you don't have any control over any of those faiths. You study them, you don't have a say in what's done with them.

edited 3rd Jan '14 5:05:22 PM by joesolo

To shift gears slightly, does the church in the US have any kind of real hierarchy? Is there and kind of centre to the Protestant churches within the US? Or is it very much an anarchical setup with each church running itself and there not actually being anyone that is in charge, even if just technically.

If by "church in the US" you're talking about the various denominations (Baptist, Lutheran, Catholic, Presbyterian, Methodist, AME Zionist, Church of Christ,...) no, there's no overarching hierarchy of them. Each denomination is completely independent of any other denomination and has its own internal hierarchy. Which is one reason saying "Christians believe this" or "Christians do that" or "Christians accept (or don't accept) this other thing" is such an inflammatory (and untrue) statement.

There are hundreds of Christian Churches, ranging from huge organizations to single storefront congregations with maybe 20 members. And even within the larger umbrella denominations like Baptist and Lutheran and Catholic there are sub-denominations that get along to varying degrees but are each separate and have their own independent organization.

Within the Lutheran Church, for instance, there's the

• AALC - American Association of Lutheran Churches
• ACLC - Association of Confessional Lutheran Churches
• ALCA - Apostolic Lutheran Church of America
• AFLC - Association of Free Lutheran Congregations
• ALCC - Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church
• ARC - Alliance of Renewal Churches (Charismatic/Pentecostal)
• CALC - Canadian Association of Lutheran Congregations
• CLA- Conservative Lutheran Association
• CLBA - Church of the Lutheran Brethren of America
• CLC - Church of the Lutheran Confession
• CLC - Concordia Lutheran Conference
• Eielsen Synod
• ELCA - Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
• ELCIC - Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada
• ELCM - Evangelical Lutheran Conference & Ministerium of North America
• ELDoNA - Evangelical Lutheran Diocese of North America
• ELS - Evangelical Lutheran Synod
• EELK -Estonian Evangelical Lutheran Church
• GCEPC - The Lutheran Evangelical Protestant Church
• ILC - Illinois Lutheran Conference
• ILF - International Lutheran Fellowship (Now Lutheran Church-International)
• LLC - Laestadian Lutheran Church
• LELCA - Latvian Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
• LCCF - Lutheran Conference of Confessional Fellowship
• LCMC - Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ
• LCMS - The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod
• LMS-USA - The Lutheran Ministerium and Synod - USA
• LCR - Lutheran Churches of the Reformation
• LCS - The Lutheran Confessional Synod
• NALC - North American Lutheran Church
• OLCC - Orthodox Lutheran Confessional Conference
• Protestant Conference
• ULMA - United Lutheran Mission Association
• WELS - Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod
• WCLA - World Confessional Lutheran Association

35 different organizations for a single umbrella denomination. And a Lutheran congregation doesn't have to belong to any of them.

edited 4th Jan '14 6:14:34 AM by Madrugada

So there's nothing connecting the Protestant denominations together? What about within the denominations themselves? I'm trying to understand the structure of the denominations in comparison to that of, say the Co E.

Nope, nothing connecting the various denominations at all.

How firmly each denomination is organized is up to the member churches of that denomination. The Roman Catholic Church is rigid: all Roman Catholic Churches are under the greater organization; I can't start my own parish and have it be accepted as Roman Catholic. On the other hand the Baptists are very loosely organized; I could start my own congregation and call it Baptist without joining any of the Baptist conferences, and as long as I held to the most fundamental tenets of the Baptist Church, there would be no one with the authority to say "That's not a Baptist Church, you can't call it that." In fact, even if I didn't hold to the central tenets, all they could do would be say so. They couldn't make me stop calling it a Baptist church.

Within most of the denominations there's sort of a vague network between the different churches. Vatican equivalents are extremely rare if that's what you're asking about.

I wasn't thinking so much Catholic Church levels of organisation as much as Church of England or even the global Anglican community.

So which ones are the main Protestant denominations in the US? Are any organised enough to have a central 'thing' that can (even if only technically) say "You are part of our denomination and you are not"?

Would the organisation level start with ones big enough to have bishops? As I assume they'd have to have a group that selects who is going to be made a bishop.

edited 4th Jan '14 6:49:36 AM by Silasw