LGBTQ+ Rights and Religion

Until recently.....never.

They may be victims, and may be even victimized by the Church. But in this instance, I don't see what the discrimination here is. First off, I thought washing your hands was a rule for any Mass-goer (one of our Catholic tropers would have to comment more on that).

But secondly, the Church definitely allows people to attend, regardless of demographic. But if you don't want to attend Mass and you want to protest, I see nothing wrong with the Church saying "do it somewhere other than where people come to worship".

I can protest gay marriage all I like, but I wouldn't actually go to a gay wedding to do it. Gays don't have to make things convenient for anyone. But then, nobody has to accommodate their activism over their faith either.

edited 7th May '13 11:28:27 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor

Wait I didn't see a news article or anything in this thread about it. Can someone tell me, did they want to actually go in the church or across from it?

From what I'm hearing, I'm having trouble blaming the Church.

L Mage you're doing the same thing. Roman Catholocism is noted for it's churchgoers A) never looking at the Bible literally and B) ignoring orders from the higher ups to be uber-conservative. I believe the severity depends on regional culture, with the worst Christian sects congregating where they never have to deal with other religious beliefs or gay people because of isolation. This is just how life works. You don't develop understanding and empathy toward people you never talk or interact with. Conservative narrow mindedness are a product of a narrow imagination and a narrow experience with other people. Though to a significantly reduced scale you see atheists make similar generalization of Christinity or any other religion. Not to say it does nearly as much harm but it's a product of the exact same logic.

The Crystal Caverns A bird's gotta sing.

Here you go.

Couldn't they have let them wash their hands in the bathroom? Unless they don't have a bathroom...ew.

Um... I've never heard of the hand-washing thing, myself. <_< (But, that doesn't mean much: Catholicism has a lot of very localised variants). And, to be honest, you can enter Catholic churches without hitting the holy water conveniently located near the door to cross yourself with, if you wish... well, unless you're being a devote Catholic.

I'd say the protesters weren't doing anything particularly blasphemous. <shrugs> In short: somebody was looking for an excuse to bar entry.

edited 7th May '13 11:39:14 AM by Euodiachloris

Good point there. Familiarity does tend to breed understanding. In light of that, I start to wonder how much of.......my..Christianity was caused by being a Christian growing up in one of the most diverse and liberal places on Earth.

As far as I read they were given the option to wash their hands. They specifically showed up to flaunt the Cardinal's words. They were told their ax would have to be grinded elsewhere.

I still don't see the issue.

edited 7th May '13 11:37:38 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor

Clearly when God wrote the bible he overestimated the average person's IQ.

@Beat

I disagree. Where are these all supposed good and accepting Christians? Dosen't it speak volumes alone that Starships views are so difficult for us to grasp that they aren't as common as they should be.

I've said it before, I will say it again. If you are part of an organization that takes a stance you disagree with, and you are not actively attempting to change or advocate for change, then you are complicit in all the harm that stance creates.

If leadership and policy do not reflect the wishes of those that are part of the organization then it is the burden of the members to see change pushed through. Not doing so is saying that the issue at hand- the human suffering and pain cause- is not worth the effort it would take to stop it, that allegiance to the organization means more then the lives that are destroyed.

Either people like Starship are in the minority or they are woefully negligent.

edited 7th May '13 11:42:31 AM by LMage

"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"

Starship and I are both New Yorkers (Though just the state for me.) And I haven't seen any Jersey Christian crazies. So I admit I don't have a broad perspective on everywhere but from my understanding generally the politics of the region influence these things far more than religoius devotion or lack there of. Going to a Catholic parish down south for example, with a mainly elderly congregation was far more blatantly conservative about everything than my New York parish.

Good Christians shut up about their faith unless it's part of a religious organization (Catholic Charities and such). Because it makes people uncomfortable and they have the experience to understand that. I'm not going to say "God loves gay people" to any Gay people because I know there's a good chance they aren't religious and would feel uncomfortable by the gesture.

edited 7th May '13 11:43:07 AM by RhymeBeat

The Crystal Caverns A bird's gotta sing.

L Mage. <_< Will you quit it? <really getting annoyed>

"Christianity" is as diverse as "atheism", "feminism" or "men's movements"... and you know it. And, those are just as bad at shutting the extremists up.

It's just what people do. <_< Give over.

edited 7th May '13 11:42:10 AM by Euodiachloris

Were the heterosexual congregants required to wash their hands before they entered the building?

I hope so. They could have accidentally touched gay people on the way!

A compelling question L.

However, I have other theories. It could simply be that just as right-wing Christians might not venture outside their circles and thus get to know others, it could be liberals don't actually have contact with a lot of more moderate (i.e. the majority) of Christians and thus they can only go on the loudmouths on Fox News.

It could be that just like many people fear LGBTQ's..not realizing the nice guy at the copy place, the loyal girl in the Navy, or the cool Mod on their thread ARE gay, so too....many people decry Christians not realizing that just because we're not standing on the corner saying "Gays need to die in a fire" doesn't mean were not Christians. Many of us just don't feel the need to advertise our faith.

And to be quite blunt with L Mage, if you ventured from the confines of OTC and went to another Christian or right-wing website, the table would be turned, and the majority of people would be sitting here saying the same thing I say: "Precisely what the hell kind of "church" do you go to?? That's sounds like nothing I've ever heard of."

I discuss some of the things I talk about here with my Christian pals and they baffled looks perfectly parallel mine when I tell them about the stuff you guys heard in the church. Some have been downright shocked and nearly refused to believe it.

I get why you're annoyed Euo. I am too. I'm annoyed that so many people who should've witnessed God's hope and love were instead so badly beaten with the brick of misinterpreted Scripture, that they don't trust the ones who follow the ''true'' Scripture.

That's not L's fault.

edited 7th May '13 11:49:40 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor

I'm not going to say that sort of Christianity is the majority, (I don't know. I'd need to see polls) but I'd met enough people messed up from that kind of Sex-ed an general attitude to say that it's nowhere near as uncommon as you think, sadly. Been to some churches, and met some people from there as well. And I go to college in Boston, which is pretty damn liberal.

I've also seen some of those websites, and I'd beg to differ.

edited 7th May '13 11:50:20 AM by DrTentacles

@Beat

To bad so sad. There are people out there using your religion to destroy the lives of others and you don't want to stop them because it makes you feel uncomfortable? I can't find it in my heart to sympathize with your pleas of "most Christians are amazing!" when those Christians stand aside and do nothing. "The passive allowance of evil is as bad as evil."

@Edu

I'm not saying they aren't but all those groups are careful to defend and regulate against their fringes and ensure that sane people are in power, and that harm isn't being cause by their actions.

"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"

Funny you say that. I met a guy that fell in love with a girl because she was a transfer from another school who'd been date-raped at her old school. He was a total Bible-thumper, and felt it was his personal duty to.....heal......her experience by showing her what a loving guy was like.

They've been married 11 years as of this post.

I believe we've asked this before......

Stop them......how? That's not sarcasm, I'm truly all ears.

edited 7th May '13 11:54:09 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor

There's a difference between saying "God loves gay people" to a stranger and "God loves gay people" to someone I know is both gay and Christian. What I meant is that liberal Christians tend to do the right thing because of their conscience not because of their faith. Therefore they don't mention Christianity unless the context warrants it. Faith is something more private to Liberal Christians generally speaking.

The Crystal Caverns A bird's gotta sing.

Stand up and advocate against them, loudly and presently. Change the church and it's stances so that at the very least they adopt a position of tolerance. Change policy, change leadership, change the system so it actually reflects the wishes and ideas of those that stand with in it. And quite seriously, if that proves impossible, schism. Leave. Join or form a church that actually reflects the values you stand by. These organizations get their power from their followers and their numbers, deny them both and lend it to better organizations.

Fight against them in any means possible- protest, vote, advocate, whatever it takes to show the world that this hate is not what you believe in and stand by. Wither the power of the Fringe that they never should have had in the first place, and put it into the hands of sane, reasonable individuals.

edited 7th May '13 11:58:14 AM by LMage

"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"

I'm torn on that. On one hand, it had uncomfortable "salvation" vibes. "Let me heal you with my faith and shit-aren't a I special? Now you owe me everything, as I have let you soar." But I could also be being cynical, and I'll admit that I'm biased by my own views. I tend to view any compassion rightly or not as "let me fix you" I shouldn't condemn honest, positive compassion. Circumstance is everything.

...Then again, I'm hardly innocent of that myself. I'm the guy telling the good little girls saving themselves for marriage and boys to go around, loosen up, and try life-you're only young once, and it's good to experience relationships, good and bad before you commit to anything. If you have nothing to compare an experience to, how can you know it's what you want?

On another note, think I can get a response to this?

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13338416760A17900100&page=454#11350

edited 7th May '13 11:58:53 AM by DrTentacles

Maybe...maybe he didn't mean it that way, but it kind of comes off as "let me show you what it's like to be with a real man". Little creepy.

edited 7th May '13 12:00:38 PM by Morgikit

That you sincerely believe that, I get. However, so do many of the people you try calling out on "the other side": different values of "sane" and a different crop of yardsticks: for each section... for starters. And, no: I've plumbed the depths of rad-fem, ultra-atheist and extremist-MRA crap. Not. That. Different. (Unsurprising, really. ) That those have less of an institutionalist bent doesn't lessen the fact that the people act the same, regardless. Heck, radical anarchists can be just as nuts... and, in-your-face.

Yet, suddenly... an institution makes it automatically worse? Why? It's just another group of people, when all is said and done. <shrugs>

Your blanket othering really gets up my nose at times, mate. <hugs> I know I shouldn't let it get to me, as I'm not a target of it... but, it still grates when you profess to be sanity and light in comparison, yet ignore this. -_-

Blinkers come in many forms.

edited 7th May '13 12:03:13 PM by Euodiachloris

Eh. If it works for them, who are we to judge? *shrug*

"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"

Oh. You mean kinda like what we do here with the result sometimes being outright mockery or to be told it makes no difference?

We can't change the policy to one of tolerance, when the entire point of the entire faith IS tolerance. It's like saying we have to convince America to become a constitutional democracy.

Change what leadership? The head of Christianity is Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, and God himself. I'm not sure what a mere mortal like me is going to do to change them.

Which is funny, because we already do that, but no matter how many people leave those churches MSNBC, Huff Po, Free Thought Blogs, and Think Progress still talk about the fringe groups.

So.....again.....what are we supposed to do?

It was an honor

To a lot of this, all I can say really is this.

http://www.paradoxicalcommandments.com/

Just...speaking out. Trying to set a public example, not being a silent majority will often be enough to shift the culture. And I hope, wish, and speak out against those who are speaking out against the worst excesses of Christians out of spite, rather than out of an honest attempt to bring these things to the attention of people so they can attempt to be improved.

edited 7th May '13 12:05:47 PM by DrTentacles