LGBTQ+ Rights and Religion

I didn't and still don't challenge their authority to decide what it means to be a Christian, or what Christians must believe. That's their decision, not mine. I had no business then, as a kid, to try to get them to change what Christianity is about. I have no business now, as an adult and nonbeliever, telling them what Christian beliefs should be.

I became a non-Christian in part because I couldn't support homophobia. I became an atheist for various other reasons outside the scope of this discussion.

What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.

You could have changed what it was about for yourself and found your own Dhamma.

But now we're getting off topic.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

I don't think anyone is claiming the source of homophobia is Christianity, but rather that it is the reason it persists in the modern and reasonable world.

Japan is stopped in traditionalism that is in many ways just as insane as Christianity.

And it's not that simple, if there where a great many like-minded Christians that believed homosexuality was a issue worth changing the stance of their religion on, or splitting away, it would have happened by now.

edited 4th May '12 2:26:02 PM by LMage

"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"

There is probably more than some truth in that Christianity, right now, is one of the main justifications for homophobia in the Western world (I am not going to touch the "modern" appellation, let alone "reasonable").

From my point of view, this does not imply that homophobia is inherent to Christianity; rather, it means that homophobia, for a number of complex historical and societal reasons, managed to find a place inside of Christianity.

And as for the "splitting away" thing, I've already mentioned my stance. I won't repeat myself even more.

edited 4th May '12 2:30:49 PM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

It's not no, but it was another possible option. To take on your own personal view and stand by that on your own. On your two feet. Even knowing that it wouldn't become wide spread and even if you still went to a church of some sect.

I'm not speaking of changing a religion and making a new sect. Merely changing it for yourself and finding your own meaning and satisfaction. To understand religion on a highly personalized level and to not bow wholly to tradition just because it is tradition is an important step in religious journeys. At least it was for myself and will continue to be so. I understand from a deeply personal level how hard this is on an individual level as well. To the point where I criticize others for not getting it.

I intend to reach a point where I am not attached to Theravada on a personal level. Or even Buddhism. A point where I merely am Dhamma because it is Dhamma. Where I have found what it truly means and have abandoned myself and my attachments. Including to my religious sect.

It is then that my faith in my religion will be wholly realized.

edited 4th May '12 2:34:49 PM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

The way I see it, if you want to try to get church leaders to change their official beliefs, your time would be better spent trying to swim up a waterfall or bring down a skyscraper by hitting it with your face.

Religions are institutions, full of rules, doctrines, traditions and money. You don't get to the top by challenging the status quo. You get there by toeing the party line and getting in good with the bosses.

Believe whatever is true and right. Try to persuade those you can to believe like you do. But don't waste time trying to lift a mountain.

edited 4th May '12 2:37:55 PM by Lawyerdude

What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.

I'm not going to. The Thai Council of Bhikkhus can continue to not allow women into the Sangha. As can the rest of Theravada. Schools like Shin Pureland can continue to completely miss the point.

But I will continue down my path finding what is Dhamma and what is Adhamma on my quest to let go. The truest Buddhist is the Buddhist who is not Buddhist I believe.

Now if I can find a point in which fighting for things I find to be Dhamma on a larger scale is viable I shall. For example I will support the Dhammananda Bhikkhuni's efforts should an opportunity to do so in more than spirit arises. I need numbers and I will go with those when I can.

edited 4th May '12 2:41:21 PM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

I'm not generally one to quote the Bible at every occasion: but you know what was said about mountains and the moving thereof...

edited 4th May '12 2:40:38 PM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

For the unaware the Dhammananda Bhikkhuni is fighting for the official reinstatement of women into the Sangha. She runs a small wat comprised of fellow nuns in Thailand and is a hot button issue there. I support her efforts in spirit and wish for her to succeed for I believe them to be right. I myself wish to join the Theravada Sangha at a point within this life as well. Theravada schools are closest to what I feel is Dhamma and I myself am at this point Theravadan.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

I'm going to climb to the top of my metaphorical mountain with my metaphorical hot dog and some metaphorical mustard.

But seriously. I was never told about non-homophobic Christian groups. I was never aware that they even existed for years. Had I known, I may have joined one, who can say? But that option was not open to me. In any case, had I chosen to stay, I would have been giving my time, my money and my loyalty to an institution that didn't reflect my beliefs. That would have made me a hypocrite, and a hypocrite is not something I want to be.

edited 4th May '12 2:50:06 PM by Lawyerdude

What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.

I can't think of metaphorical mountain statements right now. ALL I CAN THINK OF IS THE TURTLE WHO FELL TO HIS DEATH FOR TALKING SMACK WHILE BEING CARRIED TO A MOUNTAIN BY SWANS. And this children is why you don't talk smack or say unnecessary things. Because you will die like the turtle on your way to the mountain.

My children will be told this story.

edited 4th May '12 2:51:07 PM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

...?

Anyways at the risk of de-railing, how exactly do secular homophobic groups operate and what degree is their influence? (Not counting Communism which is a WHOLE other kettle of fish)

"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"

It's the Turtle Jataka. A short fable that was told to a king to get him to stop talking shit and idly chatting like a gossiping moron. A turtle wanted to go to the mountain with his swan friends but couldn't fly. So they were like "GRAB ONTO THIS STICK WITH YOUR MOUTH". And he did. But then a villager insulted the turtle and was like "TURTLE WHY YOU FLYING. TURTLES DON'T FLY. GET BACK ON GROUND WHERE YOU BELONG" and the turtle opened his mouth to tell this guy to suck it in old Indian turtle language. He fell and was broken in half by the impact of his fall.

The king was horrified and stop gossiping and being a jerk.

This and other stories like it are part of the Buddhist canon.

edited 4th May '12 2:55:04 PM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

Just to make a random example of homophobia which is not justified by religiosity: our glorious previous Prime Minister was certainly not some sort of religious fundamentalist, far from it. But he was not above making homophobic comments (for example, he famously answered inquires about his lecherous "parties", which involved minors, with "well, at least I'm not gay").

edited 4th May '12 2:58:15 PM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

@Car

I am not that familiar with Italian politics....but I have to ask: how the fuck was that man elected?

"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"

That would probably deserve a thread of its own. But the short version is that sometimes we are bloody idiots.

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

...huh.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

Anyways to re-rail: I have heard quite a few people say that the refusal of mainstream Christians to bend on this issue will be the doom of the various Christian churches. How much validity to this is there?

"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"

I repeat: most of the homophobic bullshit and bullying I heard throughout high school wasn't "God hates gays," it was dudebros going "EW GAY" and "LOL BUTTSEX". Your grindin' axe is far from the only source of the problem.

And you've not only seen that disproven by counterexample on this very thread, I've showed you studies indicating that the opposite is in fact a majority result even in one of the denominations most loudly offending (albeit not as much of one as it should be).

Same diff.

Uh huh.

It's immense pressure from within to be sure, but most denominations are growing, albeit not all of them quite as quickly as the general population. The quickest-growing ones, actually, tend to be the charismatic Deep South ones that are famous for the street preachers that shout vitriol.

edited 4th May '12 3:45:30 PM by Pykrete

Not much. One, most mainstream Christians (read: Catholics and major protestant groups) aren't exactly big on exclusion or removal of groups based on sexuality (or really any other area) and it's part of why a handful in the Catholic Church have been getting progressively louder about being anti-gay; no one else cares about who people want to have sex with so long as it's a healthy, non-abusive relationship.

Two, as far as the small, radical churches go, they aren't doomed either. Like all things, it isn't hard to get a few people to listen to your every word so long as you're convincing enough. I could get into the psychology around small churches and cults, but long story short, it's usually max one person that has any idea what he or she is saying.

edited 4th May '12 3:49:37 PM by Ramus

The emotions of others can seem like such well guarded mysteries, people 8egin to 8elieve that's how their own emotions should 8e treated.

@Ramus

The facts as presented here seem to disagree with the majority of the Catholic and Protestant churches being pro-gay rights.

edited 4th May '12 3:51:20 PM by LMage

"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"

The majority of older church goers are anti-gay and the majority of church leaders are older. Put two and two together.

The emotions of others can seem like such well guarded mysteries, people 8egin to 8elieve that's how their own emotions should 8e treated.

@Ramus

At the end of the day the Church leaders are the ones who call the shoots about what is preached allowed and official amongst their organizations, so barring a successful schism or their removal it's effectively the same thing.

edited 4th May '12 3:54:15 PM by LMage

"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"

Forget churches, this is a pretty safe assumption for most gatherings. I mean, SOP in court proceedings is for the lawyer with the weakest case to identify and challenge off jurors who aren't idiots (and if my jury duty experience is any indication there's maybe two of those that get interviewed for the bench at a time) and just fast-talk the rest.

edited 4th May '12 4:03:59 PM by Pykrete

Maybe, L Mage, but it's pretty inevitable from where I'm standing what will happen in the next few years. I could do something about speeding it up, and in fact, I do, but the concentration of my efforts related to the church tend to be related to food and clothing drives. You know, similarly important matters.

I could make a fuss about it all, but I'd rather just watch things play out as they should, with the new generation asserting its opinions instead of just me and a few loud others when it comes to things like homosexuality.

The emotions of others can seem like such well guarded mysteries, people 8egin to 8elieve that's how their own emotions should 8e treated.