LGBTQ+ Rights and Religion

Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is as the first: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” - Matthew 22:37-40

And this verse, called the entire Scripture in one line

"God so loved all the Earth, that he freely gave his one and only Son, so that whoever would trust him would never die. But would have life eternal" - John 3:16

edited 3rd Dec '12 9:16:02 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

But, also remember that the Bible says that he who does not love his neighbor as himself does not love God. I don't remember the exact verse, I'll quote it if I can find it.

Honestly, the line Maxima quoted infers that, too.

Found it

But you see, it's the anti-gay Christians who repeatedly insist that they "love" homosexual people, but they're against their "sin". Therefore they show their "love" by fighting against the "sin". So the Christian idea of love means that you vote against equal rights, against science, and against research for AIDS and other diseases all in the name of "love the sinner, hate the sin".

Can you imagine if somebody said, "I love the Negro race. But God commands that their natural state is beneath that of the white man. We are simply following God's natural order in keeping the Negro race as our slaves. Negro freedom is a violation of God's law"? Actually I'm pretty sure people did say that sort of thing.

Loads and loads of anti-gay Chrisitans openly dislike or hate homosexuals, siting God as their reason.

Okay well how far can you hate a sin until you start hating the sinner then? If a preacher says teaching evolution is a sin does that mean that he hates evolutionary biologists?

Well let me ask this.

Pacifists hate war. Does that mean they hate soldiers?

I get what your saying, there's a slippery slope where one hates something so much they begin to hate everything associated with it as well.

But if your actually asking me to define how far one can hate a sin until then start hating the sinner, then I'd have to say that their is no definite answer.

edited 3rd Dec '12 9:53:15 PM by DeviantBraeburn

A person's sexual orientation is as much a part of them as their handedness or eye color. A soldier is what a person is. War is what soldiers do. A pacifist would like to live in a world where there are no more soldiers, not because they were wiped out, but because they aren't necessary.

The choice of vocabulary of many mainstream anti-gay Christians I've seen is that they refer to "homosexual acts" or "the practice of homosexuality", or people "struggling with homosexual feelings". "In their minds," to quote Bill Maher, "there are no gay people. Only straight people who are sinning." As though there are a bunch of straight people who want to get gay married and have gay sex and recruit kids into gayness.

Personally I think the people who believe that tend to speak from their own experience. I've always been straight. I have no urge to have gay sex. Just like I have no urge to smoke crack or eat kittens. It's just not a part of who I am. So what exactly is the "sin"? (not that I believe in sin, anyway)

edited 3rd Dec '12 10:02:16 PM by Lawyerdude

Opposing AIDS research is the exact opposite of "love the sinner, hate the sin," Lawyerdude. You're way off base with that one.

I think you misunderstood my point, Ultrayellow. The same people who preach "love the sinner, hate the sin," are people who most actively support the anti-gay agenda.

That's irrelevant to the question @joeyjojo asked

The question was, if you hate an attribute (occupation, ideology, race, gender, etc) of a person hard enough, will you begin to simply hate the person?

To which I answered yes, but there is no universal definite point when someone begins to descend down that slippery slope.

edited 3rd Dec '12 10:17:18 PM by DeviantBraeburn

If someone is voluntarily, frequently, and unashamedly doing something you regard as evil, the line between hating the activity they do and hating them is a very thin one, usually one applied when the other person is someone you cared for before they took up that activity. When it's something like, say, adultery, the guilty party can play off that "it was a moment of weakness"; but when it's being gay "it's a part of me I can't change." If their sin is an aberration of character, then they can be stronger and not do it again; but if it is an immovable part of who they are, they will never stop sinning. rant

I'd say pacifists hate Blood Knights and Sociopathic Soldiers but don't hate conscripts.

edited 4th Dec '12 1:36:42 AM by Medinoc

I get where you're going with that Lawyerdude. But the fact a sin being a sin has nothing to do with your natural predisposition to it.

Just like there is all this scientific "proof" that being gay is something one cannot resist or change like their skin color for instance, there's similar "proof" that human beings just don't have it in them to be monogamous. The Bible calls my premarital sex as wrong as it does the homosexual's choice to follow his orientation.

I know that there are many in the gay right movement (collectively) who'd just wish that we'd drop the whole "you're sinning" thing. We can't. That's to betray a central core tenet of our faith. Love is not accommodation or appeasement.

Now, I believe the Bible shows us the proper way to "hate the sin, and yet love the sinner". One of the most famous accounts of Jesus was when he saved the woman caught having an affair by reminding those that would stone her that none of them are qualified to judge.

I can call homosexuality a sin. I can teach my children that no matter says it's no big deal, the Bible says otherwise. I can also remember that it's God's business how and when he'll deal with that sin. Just as it's his business how he'll deal with someone who divorced, or someone who gambles their rent away, or someone with a hair-trigger temper.

I can deal with the homosexual not as a homosexual but as what they are; a person just like me, with their own flaws and sins they have to square with their Maker as I have to square with mine. And we do business the way any two people do business; if we have common cause and respect for each other, than that's as much relevant information as I need.

So is Matthew Shepard in Hell?

It would be nice if God explained his reasoning on that sin properly.

It could be a test!

God: "Ha, I wonder if people blindly follow me instead of questioning everything I tell them! Wait, you guys! Question me! That's what I want you to do! What? Don't say I have my reasons, despite not knowing about them! And stop making assumptions! Seriously!"

I believe the point of my post is...I don't know and it's none of my business. Only a person and God truly knows the status of their salvation. Without having known Matthew Shepard personally, it would be beyond presumptuous to posit an opinion.

Additionally, and I know many people don't realize this, being gay doesn't automatically mean you're going to hell. I'd wager that many of the finest Christians the world has seen are probably homosexual. On what do I base these claims? David, king of Israel was a whore and a backstabbing asshole. God said he was "apple of his eye" and the Lord saw to it that Israel would never be vanquished partly on his promise to David.

There are gays who've done nothing even one hundredth as heinous as David, so, the math would suggest that's probably not something that determines whether you go to Hell or not.

Actually, we (collectively) believe that but in the reverse, and it's explicitly stated in the Bible. The test is will we remain faithful to God and stake our stand no matter how many people try to coerce us, browbeat us, call us homophobes and the like? Will we choose our conscience and our God, or will we fake our beliefs so as to not rile people up and offend them?

You call it following the Bible blindly. I call it trust. A loyal soldier doesn't question their CO. The people at a company follow the boss. Parents ask their children to trust their judgment until they time they make their own choices. It's not an unheard of phenomenon.

Considering the whole Bathsheba thing, I think it's fairly safe to say that David was probably Bi, rather. You don't go to those lengths unless you find the other party attractive, at least.

He... certainly was very, very close to Jonathan...

edited 4th Dec '12 7:58:13 AM by Euodiachloris

Euo, I honestly think the only reason I hang out on these threads are for these lovely psychographic analyses of yours.

I know you do. That was the joke.

edited 4th Dec '12 8:02:46 AM by Noirceur

Ah...oh. Well player Noir. Well played indeed.

A soldier can burn down a village, a boss can embezzle their company at the expense of their employees, and parents can abuse their children. Just as a soldier can disobey an illegal order, employees can testify against their boss, and children can ring Childline.

I don't wish to devalue loyalty or trust, I just would prefer that loyalty and trust not be given or granted entirely blindly.

Trust based purely on beliefs and not facts is fine by me, it just depends on how far you would go with it.

Well said pagad. In the Bible, God actually agrees with you. I forget who he was speaking but basically God says, "Tell you what. You want to know if you should follow me. How 'bout this; test me. I dare you to obey me, and see if I don't bless you and shower you with rewards such that you won't be able to contain them."

I follow the Bible about 0.4%. And it's made the difference between wanting to die and now, I can't wait to see what tomorrow brings. If that's what obeying 0.4% of the Bible gets me I gotta find out what happens when you follow the rest.