LGBTQ+ Rights and Religion

I believe that you guys are making sweeping generalizations here. Not all of us Christians are like that. In fact, for those who have felt that all you do with a belief in God is to cower in fear of him, then I truly feel sorry for you. God is strict yes, but he also loves us.

As for why he didn't just make the system completely different as opposed to being just slightly better than what we have now, again, free will. He could have just forced us all to do what he wants with no alternative, but he wants us to choose to follow him. Also, Jesus is far more influential than just a few passages and sayings. Look him up, and you'll see just how much he has done and influenced. So many great acts and organizations were created due to him. Yes, some have thought to do some nasty stuff all in his name, but again, that has come to not properly understanding what his teachings are.

Look, as a Christian, I'm not really in favor of homosexuality. However, I also think that modern-day Christians have taken it way out of hand. Jesus told us to love, not to hate, as we are all equal in his eyes. While we do believe that homosexuality is a sin, so is being hateful. Only through the grace of God can we be saved, and we have to show it in our actions. Hating gay people is the exact opposite of what he taught us.

Lastly, I don't want to sound like I'm being a bigot here, but I simply don't see how we are made to be with another of the same sex. Our anatomy just doesn't add up that way. But I'm not going to hate you if you think otherwise.

edited 31st Oct '12 6:35:58 PM by LDragon2

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We totally are

But lets just keep that little secret between this thread okay?

edited 31st Oct '12 7:05:12 PM by DeviantBraeburn

"God...loves us."

Unless you're gay, or don't believe in him or a few dozen other things. Or he loves you but makes you in such a way that your existence offends him and he wants you to overcome your existence. Sort of like a life hard-mode.

"He could have just forced us all to do what he wants with no alternative, but he wants us to choose to follow him."

Follow or burn for all eternity is not a real choice. It's extortion in any sense of the word.

"I don't want to sound like I'm being a bigot here"

One of my favorite sentences to hear, please continue.

"but I simply don't see how we are made to be with another of the same sex. Our anatomy just doesn't add up that way."

Our anatomy also has organs we don't use and the same hole for breathing and eating. It was not very intelligently designed.

Except, there are many ways to have a much better system, while still not infringing on free will, such as getting belief in God out of the system so that we are only judged morally, and not on the level of belief or faith we have, allowing for moral people who don't believe in God to not get punished along with immoral people.

However, that wasn't the big point I was trying to get at, originally. Let us, for a moment, assume that the system that was made when Jesus died is the best system there could be. Well, then, why didn't God make that the system in the first place? Why did he have to wait until Jesus for the system to become the way it is, rather than making the system like that in the first place? You are crediting him with fixing something that was created broken by him.

Historians can't even agree on whether or not Jesus actually existed. If he did, there was absolutely no contemporary reports of him doing anything. Everything that was caused by him was done by people in his name, and not by Jesus himself. He did absolutely nothing of note in history. In fact, he's so insignificant, that, if one were to take him out of history, but allow people to still believe he was in history, which might actually be how things are, absolutely nothing would change.

We aren't made at all. We grow in the bellies of our mothers thanks to hormones and cellular replication, and this species came around thanks to evolution from apes, or, more distantly, fish.

Also, the penis fits into the anus pretty well, so you can't say we're completely unsuited, anatomically, for gay sex.

edited 31st Oct '12 7:09:32 PM by deathpigeon

At least she/he didn't say "I'm sorry if this sounds racist.."

I find it interesting that the old testament's commandment to kill homosexuals is overridden by Jesus's love for everyone but not enough to override the fact he didn't say anything about homosexuality and therefore we can probably infer he didn't care.

I have a feeling this is going to derail horribly if I continue, do we have a general religion thread around here?

edited 31st Oct '12 7:15:09 PM by thatguythere47

It would just end in fire, tears and blood.

edited 31st Oct '12 7:19:31 PM by DeviantBraeburn

So that's a no then. Give me a second...

FIYUH AND BLOOD!

This thread is turning into the "How Christianity And Everybody Who Follows It Suck" thread again.

Anyway, there are moral viewpoints that you get from Christianity that you wouldn't necessarily come to from other areas.

The Christian way is that you're supposed to forgive everybody everything, and taking revenge on people who do bad things to you is wrong. This is not a moral value that everybody agrees with; a couple of years on this forum have shown me that. Some moral systems think that revenge is awesome and capital punishment or torture is acceptable because some people don't deserve to be treated like human beings.

edited 31st Oct '12 7:28:58 PM by LoniJay

I am confused as to why we are only discussing Christianity, too.

I happen to notice that too.

Come on guys give the other religions a chance!

Why shouldn't Paganism, Voodoo, Bahá'í Faith, and Taoism(is this even a religion) get a shot.

edited 31st Oct '12 7:33:20 PM by DeviantBraeburn

, Because we know the most about Christianity and most of the religious people here are Christians, so we care the most about Christianity.

Every now and again, someone trys to get us to talk about other religions. What we end up doing every time is talk about what they believe for about a page without any arguing before we return to arguing about Christian beliefs.

Also, whether or not Taoism counts as a religion depends on what definition of religion you rely on.

edited 31st Oct '12 7:36:33 PM by deathpigeon

Has there ever in history been actual gay marriages before this point?

Well, it doesn't seem that you guys aren't really open listening to other arguments, as you guys have your mind firmly set.

I'll just end with what I believe. God loves us, but he can't force us into following him. As for why we can't simply be moral enough to be allowed into Heaven, it is because we all fall in the face of God. It doesn't matter how good you are. We all are imperfect. Only faith can save us.

Hell wasn't intended for us, as it was originally meant for the Devil and his followers. You are sent there if you don't accept Jesus. Harsh, but sin can't be allowed into heaven, and all sin is equal. As for making it so that if you are morally good that you can get into heaven, who are we to decide if we are moral or not? Sin is all equal, but God as placed a solution for us. It is up to you as to whether or not you accept it.

Also, if Jesus really didn't do anything amazing, or even existed at all, then how did he get so many followers in the first place?

I'm done.

Marriage? No.

But Ancient Greece, Rome, and certain parts of China had same sex unions.

EDIT: Wait. I just found this

edited 31st Oct '12 7:43:36 PM by DeviantBraeburn

@Cats: Marriage as it currently stands is a recent innovation, so no. Marriage gets funky in olden days though. Someone more historically inclined could probably explain it better but it was essentially a contract to pawn your daughter off for some donkeys.

And the general thread is up read it now before it gets locked for being to "flame-baity"

This is so fucked up. The millions of people who existed before Jesus are all in hell? People who never heard of him and never had a chance? Everyone who is of a different faith but is still a good person is going to hell?

That is not a deity worth worshipping.

Well, what tropers from other religions do we have? We have one vocal Buddhist, and a bunch of neo-Pagans, but I can't recall any tropers of other religions that like to talk about it.

Aondeug occasionally came in here and said "Some varieties of Buddhism are also pretty down on homosexuality and that's bad", but the response to that was just sort of "Oh. OK. Yeah, that is bad. I guess we all agree". There's no real fuel for discussion there, or at least not discussion people here want to have.

I don't think any other cultures have really had same-sex marriages. It seems to be a pretty modern idea.

I'm a reform Jew, and my point of view is skewed rather heavily by how casually my family approached the more spiritual aspects of the religion, but I've never really seen how God and morality are related. Sure, the guy probably has his own opinions and presumably knows how to maximize the prosperity of society (Having a non-linear perception of time, he'd know what the best form of government is or what laws should be passed to keep a country functioning), but mostly our morals are just based in society and our brain chemistry. I can vaguely understand things like, "Don't murder," because from a psychological and physical health-focused point of view it's better for us if people don't, but I've never been convinced that the universe is coded such that one action is, "Good," whereas another is, "evil." Most of the universe is rocks, and until we can define good and evil applying them to some innate rule seems silly.

And homosexuality is really just tricking your brain into thinking you're improving your chances of your genes surviving. As much as I love the idea of Darwin enlightening us to God's intention, it's silly. If I drink a diet soda with artificial sugar, I'm sinning just as much as if I'm having consensual, legal sex with another guy, by that argument.

Worth worshiping?

Jew high-five!

edited 31st Oct '12 7:47:08 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Personally I take the stance that no human is in hell. I don't think it's ever mentioned that hell is a place where humans go to. I believe references to "wailing and gnashing of teeth" are references to what the Church refers to as "Purgatory". There's suffering in Purgatory, but it's not eternal and it doesn't punish the unfaithful or those that do no harm in their actions. My personal beliefs aren't strictly in line with the Church but the one thing I agree on is that it's "works" that are by far the most important thing about getting into heaven, what you do, for good or bad, is what God cares about. And by my definition "bad" is defined by "harmful to others" which homosexuality is not. Like I said it's a personal thing and not any official dogma.

This partnership whatever has made me curious. Linky?

Well, again, previously marriage was business and not this love bullshit we have now. Of course husband and wife would likely become loyal and close, they didn't have the same expectations out of marriage that we do now. For this reason the reason why we didn't have same-sex marriages previously was because they would necessarily be "unproductive", and then they would just go have sex with whoever they like on the side. However the unproductivity is not an issue now.

If we took the sex out of marriage, why would it be wrong? Then just add the sex back in because these people really aren't going to stop having sex no matter how much you call them sinners.

edited 31st Oct '12 7:47:23 PM by ohsointocats

The deity who put that system in place.

@L Dragon: I know that I'm perfectly open to any argument for religion or any part of religion. However, it's going to take much more than one or two posts to convince me. It will need to be a very good argument that not only shows the system is good, the Abrahamic God is one worthy of my respect, and the Abrahamic God exists. To this end, my concerns about the system, and the Abrahamic God must be addressed, and proof of the Abrahamic God needs to be presented. You will never change my mind if you give up after two posts, nor will it if you address what you think I'm saying, rather than what I'm actually saying, such as how you addressed why the system is less than perfect, and not why the system wasn't created as the better version that it became after Jesus died rather than the more imperfect system it was in the Old Testament. Granted, that was as much my fault as yours.

Also, why shouldn't it be only on how good of a person we are? I mean, why should faith matter in whether or not you get rewarded? If there are two people of equal morality, should they not be given an equal reward or punishment?

Why should all sin be equal? I mean, shouldn't someone who, say, steals be punished less than someone who killed someone? Also, why should a lack of faith or belief be a sin?

He got so many followers because of Paul. Paul thought he got a revelation from God, and spread the word of Christianity, which believed a series of stories that may or may not be true.