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LGBT Rights and Religion:

Discussion of religion in the context of LGBT rights is only allowed in this thread.

Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBT rights..." threads.

Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.

edited 4th Oct '13 8:26:43 AM by Madrugada

I want Kat's glasses!
Except it [sleeping with a same-sex person] has exactly as much reason to be arbitrarly declared "sin" as eating unhealthy food: zero.

Edit: Not just premarital sex: Also sex with any form of birth control, or sex with a sterile, pregnant or menopaused wife.

edited 22nd Oct '12 3:12:19 PM by Medinoc

They Called Me Mad!! I decided to show them all; but when I looked on my works, oh mighty, I despaired: for it made me realize they were right.
Euo will do!
[up][up]Yes: you should love and respect whoever they are. <shrugs> To be honest, fretting about who's in the bed if they're not doing the incest or adultery that can damage others or themselves is... shellfish.

edited 22nd Oct '12 3:12:16 PM by Euodiachloris

"When all else failed, she tried being reasonable." ~ Pratchett, Johnny and the Bomb
 4303 Pykrete, Mon, 22nd Oct '12 3:12:41 PM from Viridian Forest
NOT THE BEES
At the same time Max, your argument was that the term used in defining the offense gave it extreme severity precluding further discussion. And then I gave an example where not only was it overturned by a rather high figure, but in a rather flippant "seriously, you people are still on about this?" way.

My argument is that it's on the table and up for judgment, in relation to our growing knowledge of the world and ourselves. This is our moral responsibility.

EDIT: you answered the other thing I asked in an edit in another edit. edit edit edit edit.

[up] ಠ_ಠ

edited 22nd Oct '12 3:19:35 PM by Pykrete

NCC - 1701
No, no Pyrete I saw your edit. My answer was we're not living under Levirate law and this isn't old Isreal. This is the Constitutional democratic republic known as the United States and we play ball differently here [lol]. Also, Timothy nullifies draconian marriage arrangements.

Sorry I didn't address your point. I get what you mean about the word abomination. My point was Shima is saying homosexuality is against tribal norms. I'm saying the Bible as I'm understanding didn't say it was bad because "that's not how we Jews roll." It said "it is an abomination before God." It totally skipped past social mores and literally said God was offended by it (in a manner similar to how God condemns fornication, and nobody debates that one).

My point to Shima, and you, is that I may be wrong because I'm misunderstanding something, but not because I'm doing like the WBC and making shit up.

Not just premarital sex: Also sex with any form of birth control, or sex with a sterile, pregnant or menopaused wife.

Citation please.

Edit: Dammit Pyrete, you're like a Ninja Marine Special Ops MI6 agent!

Edit 2: I believe is all true and accurate, including Timothy.

Edit 3: It's not the severity. It's the fact there's nothing that suggests the assertion was specific to a time and place, and because both Testaments would suggest it's wrong.

edited 22nd Oct '12 3:21:40 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
 4305 Pykrete, Mon, 22nd Oct '12 3:20:52 PM from Viridian Forest
NOT THE BEES
Well, sort of. You said we're not bound to it by secular law. Modern analysis points to Timothy being written falsely and thus moot. So, state law aside, is that widow under divine moral mandate to marry her in-law? Or can we feel comfortable looking back and saying "yeah that's not such a good idea"?

Not just premarital sex: Also sex with any form of birth control, or sex with a sterile, pregnant or menopaused wife.

In the current Catechism, that only applies to birth control and voluntary sterilizing procedures. It does permit it when sterility is "for reasons independent of their will".

edited 22nd Oct '12 3:24:27 PM by Pykrete

NCC - 1701
Well, sort of. You said we're not bound to it by secular law. Modern analysis points to Timothy being written falsely and thus moot. So, state law aside, is that widow under divine moral mandate to marry her in-law? Or can we feel comfortable looking back and saying "yeah that's not such a good idea"?

I believe Timothy is as valid as Genesis. Nevertheless, the passage saying widows have to marry their brothers-in-law, like the ones about a rape victim marrying her rapist, have clear statements that they are being made in a specific time and place.

Also, Paul repeated the assertion that if you have a legal divorce or are a widow, it's like being a virgin, you can start from scratch.

In the current Catechism, that only applies to birth control and voluntary sterilizing procedures.

We're talking about Christianity here, not some Catholic nonsense.

edited 22nd Oct '12 3:34:53 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
 4307 Morgikit, Mon, 22nd Oct '12 3:33:58 PM from Lavender Town Relationship Status: In season
Queen of Foxes
I hear people say adulterous straight men are in the same boat as all gay men. But last I checked, adultery is legal in the United States. And when's the last time a straight man was assaulted for sleeping around?
Nya

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NCC - 1701
[up] Exactly. That's why adulterous men who, while having crappy sexual morals, have a sense of fairness and decency and fight against that kind of bullshit.

Y'know, like me.[lol]

edited 22nd Oct '12 3:44:54 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
 4309 Silasw, Mon, 22nd Oct '12 4:08:27 PM from UK :( Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Globalist Bunny
"you're not to lie with a man as you would with a woman."

Not to be picky but I am I the only person reading that passage as "Pick one or the other just not both". Hell you could even extend it to "no anal with a dude if you've done it with a girl". After all it specifically says "as you would with a woman" so as long as you're doing it a different way...
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael

"A nuclear powered magnet death ball is perfectly scientifically possible." ~ Discar
 4310 majoraoftime, Mon, 22nd Oct '12 4:15:11 PM from Northern Peninsula Relationship Status: I don't mind being locked in this eternal maze!
Hmm, at the risk of sounding ignorant, are there passages in the Bible condemning female homosexuality?
I'm an Irene!
[up] Nope.

There is "Mother and Daughter", but that is about Incest.

Also, I can't remember a passage condemning Polygamy, which clearly will have some Women on Women atleast once.(not every single marriage would, but some would for sure) There might be a passage, though.
 4312 Kostya, Mon, 22nd Oct '12 4:51:34 PM from Everywhere
The Razruchityel
Female homosexuality probably wasn't considered "real sex" during the Hebrew times so it makes sense they didn't bother to address it.

 4313 shimaspawn, Mon, 22nd Oct '12 4:58:02 PM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Homosexuality is called an abomination in some translations but the word in the original is the biblical word used for "cultural taboo". It is not called an abomination to God which are God's taboo's and once again uses a different word for abomination. It is the word best translated as "cultural taboo." That means that it's a cultural taboo. Not a sin. There's a different word that's used for all the actual sins. Not just the hygiene laws which are cultural taboos, not religious ones.

You're the one who keeps saying we need to take the whole Bible in context. If you do that, homosexuality isn't a sin.

edited 22nd Oct '12 5:05:35 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
I'm an Irene!
It also is not specifically homosexuality either in that. And I'm not sure I buy the whole "women on women is not real sex" deal either. I don't see why it wouldn't be known to exist.

Likewise, from what I remember, there was, at the time, tons of male slavery(with male owners) where the whole "men on men" thing could be specifically referring to.

The thing is, regardless, it does not actually imply Homosexuality at all. It could mean it, but not necessarily. Likewise, it's also mentioned during the "hygiene and cleansliness" section. Which only the mentioned Incest bit is any real exception to(and one could argue having sex with direct family outside of being married is unclean anyway). Related, an enema was probably extremely difficult to do around that time, meaning anal was particular dangerous. Another thing that passage could be referring to. There's multiple ways to take it. I will not say that it couldn't mean Homosexuality, but it's not as "iron clad" or as "specific" as people think it is. It's extremely vague. And I still will say the fact it doesn't mention women on woman, at all, despite mentioning mother and daughter(even with another man, it's still a form of women on women, if only in part) in another passage, means homosexuality is not the actual likely meaning.

I hope that all made sense.
 4315 L Mage, Mon, 22nd Oct '12 5:11:42 PM from Miss Robichaux's Academy Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Evil Trickster
Homosexuality is called an abomination in some translations but the word in the original is the biblical word used for "cultural taboo". It is not called an abomination to God which are God's taboo's and once again uses a different word for abomination. It is the word best translated as "cultural taboo." That means that it's a cultural taboo. Not a sin. There's a different word that's used for all the actual sins. Not just the hygiene laws which are cultural taboos, not religious ones.

You're the one who keeps saying we need to take the whole Bible in context. If you do that, homosexuality isn't a sin.

Ohh! I really want to see Starship respond to this.
"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"
 4316 Radical Taoist, Mon, 22nd Oct '12 6:34:46 PM from the #GUniverse
scratching at .8, just hopin'
Calling the bible the Word of God seems less like a way to worship God, and more a way to worship the Council of Niceas, who arranged what we know as the Bible today by committee.
 4317 drunkscriblerian, Mon, 22nd Oct '12 7:27:50 PM from Castle Geekhaven Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
@post 4316: [awesome]
If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed.

~Cora M. Strayer~
 4318 Aqueos, Mon, 22nd Oct '12 7:47:56 PM from San Fransisco Suburbs Relationship Status: Tweaking my holographic boyfriend
This might prove a sport of some interest.
The bible is ambiguous. Next is us attempting to decipher ancient Greek poetry and figure out exactly what the author meant. Can we just leave it at "There is no definitive answer" and get on with it?

It's not like everyone agrees about the rest of the bible, look at the differences between Catholics and Protestants... and between individual protestants.. and just EVERYTHING. I don't see the sacraments in the bible after all, but you don't see protestants going after catholics still for murdering the bible or whatever. In the end Christianity is the sum of many different things, and I think we all just need to accept this and move on.

Sure it's unacceptable in certain branches of Christianity. Woopdiedoo.

edited 22nd Oct '12 7:53:02 PM by Aqueos

I find myself strangely drawn to this odd configuration of activity.
 4319 Pykrete, Tue, 23rd Oct '12 12:00:54 AM from Viridian Forest
NOT THE BEES
but you don't see protestants going after catholics still for murdering the bible or whatever.

Funny story.

Seriously though, I don't think I've ever personally gotten more than a brief ribbing over it.

edited 23rd Oct '12 12:02:03 AM by Pykrete

Princess Ymir's knightess
Starship, you seem to constantly say that the people you argue against are making really good points... but then you say you disagree anyway.

Or at least that's the impression that I'm getting here.

edited 23rd Oct '12 4:18:46 AM by kay4today

NCC - 1701
Ohh! I really want to see Starship respond to this.

Happy to oblige, although I've stated this before. This is not a case of me saying "Guys take the Bible in context here but not here." People make it appear that way, but it isn't. I say "Guys, the Bible must be taken exactly as it is. If the Bible says something is wrong because it's flat-out wrong, or if it says something is allowable under certain set conditions, or if it says something was wrong but isn't any longer; then those are three separate statements, each to be taken on it's own word.

What Shima's been arguing for awhile now is something different. Shima isn't finding any passages that say "Homosexuality was wrong, but is now allowed, " or "Homosexuality is against the tribe of the Isreal." She's arriving at that point by way of questioning translations and the like. That's a different thing.

My approach is to take the Bible at face value. Her's is to question if the words on the page are the words on the page. She's entitled to that approach, it's one that many take, especially in the gay rights bloc. I do not.

When the Bible says fornication is a sin, I don't question if the Greek word for fornication really meant "sex without a condom" or "sex standing up" or "sex with your best friend's ex". I take that it means "you can't have sex with someone who's not your wife."

The Bible actually has a verse that says to the effect "He who subtracts from even a word of the Scriptures subtracts from his blessings, and he who adds even a word to Scripture adds curses to his life." Thus why I take it the way I do. It may be right, or it may be wrong, but that's my approach.

Starship, you seem to constantly say that the people you argue against are making really good points... but then you say you disagree anyway.

Well Kay, I find that people, especially the ones on this website, tend to be far too intelligent and savvy to make blatantly stupid, wrong statements. And even when they're wrong, the logic is so well thought out and so well presented, it is still good for knowledge.

Lawyerdude and Scriblerian have made erroneous statements that Christians and Christianity are the source of much of the world's misery (previously). They were wrong, but if you look at the posts, many of the statements are undeniable fact and the logic is sound, up to a point.

I know sometimes I seem like I just take the contrary view for the lulz, but I don't. I examine each argument because there's something of value when intelligent people combine heads.
It was an honor
 4322 Loni Jay, Tue, 23rd Oct '12 6:47:35 AM from Australia Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
The trouble is, Starship, that in other areas than homosexuality you seem more willing to interpret the scripture loosely.

What is it, exactly, that makes the NT statements against women speaking in church products of their context while NT statements against homosexuality are set in stone?

edited 23rd Oct '12 7:10:21 AM by LoniJay

Be not afraid...
Euo will do!
[up][up]Starship, the whole issue boils down to translation, though: heck... it's even a translation when it was put into the written Temple Hebrew it ended up in, as it was oral tradition and scraps of written well before it got "modernised" and standardised into the Torah. tongue And, it's always been like this.

Not to mention there's been the argument that the whole "don't sleep with another man as if with a woman" could actually mean "make sure if you do, you're the topper" (which was the cultural bias of the time and the region, anyway). tongue

It's that bleeding vague what was originally meant. tongue

edited 23rd Oct '12 7:14:24 AM by Euodiachloris

"When all else failed, she tried being reasonable." ~ Pratchett, Johnny and the Bomb
NCC - 1701
The trouble is, Starship, that in other areas than homosexuality you seem more willing to interpret the scripture loosely.

What is it, exactly, that makes the NT statements against women speaking in church products of their context while NT statements against homosexuality are set in stone?

I don't know where you got the idea I think the NT passages on women speaking in the Church is not as set as the statements against homosexuality. Much like homosexuality, there's a lot of "Well, the translation says....." where those verses are concerned. To me it seems the Bible is saying women can do anything they like, except be preachers in Church.

Much like homosexuality, I don't see where the Bible says that a Church with a female pastor is going to be smitten with hellfire. In other words, I don't find it that big a deal, so I don't press the issue past that point.

It was an honor
 4325 Morgikit, Tue, 23rd Oct '12 7:34:31 AM from Lavender Town Relationship Status: In season
Queen of Foxes
Well, maybe not hellfire, but the bible does say that those who engage in guy-on-guy homosexuality should be put to death. The fact that most Christians ignore it doesn't change the fact that it's there.

edited 23rd Oct '12 7:35:33 AM by Morgikit

Nya

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