LGBTQ+ Rights and Religion

It is possible, because I get things wrong. So let's look at that facts and see if I'm wrong, shall we?

Did I say Christians are the most awesomest people since awesomeness was invented? No. Did I say Christians, including the relatively sane ones, haven't screwed up? No. Do I have some desire to...."see my religion come out on top"? No.

Now, I have constantly said "Guys, there's very specific subsets of Christianity that subscribe to hate and bullying. Several of us don't fall in that subset and there's very clear empirical data saying this." Does this get ignored? Routinely. I have said "Saying the Bible is the cause of homophobia is provably false." Does this get ingnored? Routinely. I have stated that the people making the biggest and boldest proclamations about Christianity seem to have some warped views on how it actually works and even what the Bible says. Is it true? Yes. Does that cause people to slow down and reevalute? Rarely.

That, Girlfriend, is super fucking tiresome, if you want to describe something that way.

@Morg - I could've sworn somebody referred to you as "she". My apologies. But for your information, it's possible to post and by the time I hit send, you've already posted and had three responses since. So no, I'm not trying to drag anything out.

Besides, I didn't say anything insulting or belittling and I stand by the sentiment of my post.

@Starship: Yes, there is a subset of Christianity which is the problem. However, it appears to either A: have more power or B: be more common than those of your ilk would like to believe, considering the current situation for homosexuals in most countries.

Also, no one ever said that homophobia came from the bible...indeed, there's only a couple of passages which can be interpreted that way (and most of those refer to gay sex, not gays in general...considering the bible's attitude towards sex in general I can't find that exactly surprising) and most of those are in parts of the book established churches don't pay attention to anymore. The "show me the 'god hates fags' commandment" thing is a common refrain among LGBT activists. Check Facebook if you don't believe me.

Most of the gay hate does come from current church leaders, however. Whether or not rank-and-file Christians want to accept this...well, that ball is in their court.

edited 17th Oct '12 9:55:42 PM by drunkscriblerian

For the record, I do read your posts before I comment on them. Maybe I'm insane because I always interpret them in a different way than you allegedly intended but I do read them. I should not have lashed out at you like that and for that (and only that) I'm sorry.

I don't think you're insane. By your own admission the people like me, Bored, Carc, and others aren't the types of Christians you're used to. It's not unreasonable to hear "I'm a Christian. I don't agree with homosexual expression," and react based on how you've heard others who've said the same thing have behaved.

This is not a thing to be ashamed of. We all do it. The key is, we have to be willing to see where we're wrong and learn from that.

Citation please.

Or C) People are generally phobic about things they don't understand and, as I've said for the fifth time now, they find things to bolster and feed that phobia.

Chicken and the egg, you know?

edited 17th Oct '12 10:10:50 PM by DeviantBraeburn

I don't know about that. I don't think anyone would argue there were plenty of Nazis (either actual members of the party or just servants of the regime) who were just plain sadistic, antisocial personalities, but you'll find those in every population.

No, I think most passionate Nazis ( this does not include average citizens or ordinary soldiers who were just doing their jobs), or at least a lot of them, genuinely believed what they did was right. Jews, gypsies, etc, were parasites. Rats. Do you hate rats? Not necessarily, but they have to be exterminated nonetheless.

For every person who doesn't care about a cause, or is just in it for themselves, there's a person who supports it with all their heart and soul.

edited 17th Oct '12 10:11:53 PM by Robotnik

I'll grant you that last point, Starship.

So it's just fear then? The church is by and large letting ignorance and discomfort write its policy?

edited 17th Oct '12 10:13:52 PM by drunkscriblerian

Very good points Robotnik.

I'm sure there are homophobes who believe they're doing God's will as much I believe I'm doing God's will opposing them, true. But the fact remains, each of us is reading a Book and getting conclusions from it. Those conclusions say more about us, than what's on the page.

As Scriblerian himself says, read literally, the Bible doesn't actually condone gay hate in any possible way.

In short, the homophobia in the Church is more a reflection of the general homophobia in the population, rather than vice versa.

Precisely, though the by and large thing is, again, debatable. The Church is no different from any group of people. Remember that list of yours, the one listing all the things did to cause misery?

What you meant was, "these were all the times the Church could've done something wonderful and it didn't". And you know what? You're absolutely right. We failed.

When one becomes Christian, we don't suddenly get Powered Armor or x-ray vision or the ability to feel the Force. We're people who were just as weak, flawed, and prone to fucking up as we were the day before we got saved. We just try to learn from it.

edited 17th Oct '12 10:22:27 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

There is no cause so just that one cannot find an idiot following it. :Larry Niven

read literally, the Bible doesn't actually condone gay hate in any possible way.

What about Leviticus 20:13?

Leviticus is in the Apocrypha if memory serves.

EDIT: Memory did not serve me. It's Old Testament, my bad.

edited 17th Oct '12 10:20:32 PM by drunkscriblerian

Not to mention how Paul called homosexuals "abominations before God" in his letter to the Romans.

I'd say that calling someone an abomination is pretty hateful.

edited 17th Oct '12 10:21:56 PM by DrunkGirlfriend

However, all the passages which condemn homosexuality have been challenged by scholars at one time or another. My assertion was that Biblical condemnation remains a debatable point.

"Thou shalt not kill" is pretty clear. All the miscellaneous bits on gays are murky.

Yes, but they're the ones that are most often cited by the "being gay is a sin" crowd.

As Scrib points out, yes, an incomplete reading of the Bible would suggest that. The ad hominem argument is that if you cherry pick the Bible like that then every non-virgin should be stoned, everybody who eats pork should be stoned, everyone who's lied should have their tongue cut out, etc.

That's why it's considered a good thing when Jesus said "Or...you could have mercy on your fellow man as I have mercy on you."

@DG: True, but the points are still debatable. I think its fair to call upon the church to examine its interpretation of such passages at the very least.

Yeah. Now, if they could just do that a little more often...

edited 17th Oct '12 10:26:36 PM by drunkscriblerian

@Starship: Except that nobody really follows that either.

@Starship

You really confuse me some times, you say you believe the Bible to be infallible to the letter and yet, argue that it should only be interpreted broadly and in spirit.

Sigh, no L Mage. I'm saying that the Bible must be read completely and totally. God says that all sinners, homosexuals, adulterers, liars, thieves, people who download music illegally, wife-beaters, pedophiles, extortionists, people who leave shitty tips, etc, should all suffer gruesome and unusual punishment.

God, knowing that this would damn 100.00% of humanity, said "Or....confess your sins, believe in my Son, trust my Spirit, and we'll call it even."

It's not a matter of 'broadly', it's a matter of "completely".

@Scrib and Girlfriend - That's what me, Carc, Loni, Bored and the rest are here for. We're bringing (true) Christians back! Yeah!

edited 17th Oct '12 10:33:59 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

I just can't wrap my brain around all the old testament rules being not valid except for one.

Minor note: I don't consider myself specifically Christian, but do consider myself a theist.

(Edit:Yes I did. I would have put this in joking mode too but it messes up the formatting.)

CURSE YOU FORMATTING ERRORS

edited 17th Oct '12 10:52:02 PM by Boredman

Which one?

Oh. Well, screw you then! Edit: Dude, did you not see that that was in Joking Mode?

edited 17th Oct '12 10:49:42 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

The one that says a man fucking another man is abomination.

Oh. That. Well, the thing is, the Old Testament isn't invalidated, as such. Meaning, adultery is still an abomination. It's just that thanks to Jesus dying and rising, there's no need to lynch an adulterer.

Also, with Jesus replacing the priests and prophets, there's nobody to judge you but your Maker. You and who you choose to fuck is between you and Him. Only.

Well, between me and him and the state. That ban thing is still in effect, and will probably stay in effect til the next millennium.

edited 17th Oct '12 10:59:10 PM by Morgikit