LGBTQ+ Rights and Religion

Courage like most labels is subjective.

edited 9th Sep '12 9:10:00 AM by DeviantBraeburn

I'm just saying that's the logical conclusion of that particular arguments. It's essentially saying that theoretical good the Churches might do excuses them from responsibility for the death and suffering they might cause. In no court, would that argument fly. And if it where any other group no reasonable mind would even consider that argument. Doing good dose not magically nullify evil done.

And that's a big part of the issue. A lot of church hierarchies are old, isolated men who are making judgements about people that only exist in theoreticals. Not about their friends and families and people who are part of their daily life. They're told about gays in theology lectures by people who are part of the same group think and don't leave the comfort of their own flocks and structure often enough.

The Pope cruises through the masses surrounded by bullet proof glass, but he doesn't know the people he's preaching to. He doesn't know these people he's demonizing. They're not real to him.

What we need to do is make LGBT people real people and not just strawmen. That's the surest way to convince people.

edited 9th Sep '12 9:19:10 AM by shimaspawn

What do you think that church does exactly? Lynch Transexuals? Kick gay babies?

In fairness Mehmet Ali Ağca provided an ample reason why popes should us bullet-proof glass. But I agree overall about what your saying. Getting to know someone is a great way, to destroy stereotypes you had about there race,sexual orientation/religion/gender/etc.

edited 9th Sep '12 9:25:49 AM by DeviantBraeburn

The Harvey Milk strategy. Still works.

edited 9th Sep '12 9:39:04 AM by RadicalTaoist

There is a huge number of gay and bi homeless teenagers who were kicked out of their house by their parents because of their sexual orientation. Parents abandon their own children because of the parents' religious upbringing and the childrens' sexual orientation.

Not to mention all the Churches the exalt the value of "Repairitive Therapy".

But beyond that, The Churches cultivate a aura of contempt and hatred that festers into actions: they give "higher" justifications to the actions of bullies and bigots. They demonize Homosexuals alongside rapists and murderers, when you do that how can you not expect people to treat them as such?

That is their greatest crime, and it causes more suffering and death then any other.

What I can't understand is those religious people (I'm sure its not just Christians) who seem to think bullying and harassment is justifiable if it happens to people who go against their belief system. To the point they oppose laws meant to protect children.

Please note I'm referring only to those religious people who actually seem to believe the above statement. If you don't, I am not talking about you.

@ Morg, For whatever reason, people believe it's okay to do terrible things to people who hold different value systems.

I don't understand that either. It's one of the things the Bible says you're supposed to be against yet many Christians do it anyway. The only explanation I can think of is that they feel things such as God's beliefs on what is sinful are crystal clear and that anybody who continues to sin in spite of this must be out to spite God. They view this as the ultimate in heresy and as a result they abuse them to try and make them see the light.

The reason is Xenophobia. Now why many Christians feel this way is something I will never understand since it's one thing you're not supposed to do.

edited 9th Sep '12 10:44:02 AM by Kostya

I've certainly heard such justifications before. But you think they'd be more merciful to children, at least. Then again, since when have the villains of real life been like the ones on Saturday morning cartoons?

Everyone's always on about the children. They've already tried leaving them alive, but all they do is grow up under the church's rule or dedicate their pathetic lives to revenge, usually both. Really, killing them is a kindness. They can retract that kindness if you wish. But then who's the villain?

I think we can all agree that at a low level, the fundamental moral concept of Christianity, at least in North America, is the Golden Rule, right?

Do onto others as you would wish they would do onto you.

The problem is that the golden rule falls flat at times, and this is a good example of it. The thought process is...if I were gay, I would want someone to put social pressure on me to make me not gay, so as such this must be a good thing for me to do. They oppose anti-bullying policies because they think that they legitimately think is a good thing.

I don't actually think that the golden rule is good enough as a moral concept for this very reason.

"love thy neighbour" has always seemed like a good golden rule to me.

"Mind Your Own Business except in the cases of human suffering" Seems like the best Golden Rule to me.

What about Necrophilia and Incest?

Necrophilia you have the argument that it causes human suffering to the loved ones of the deceased. Incest is a whole other kettle of fish and does in fact have some arguments in favour of none life creating incest.

I'm in favor of incest if all parties involved are old enough to consent and do so without corrosion. Necrophilla as a whole I am unfamiliar with, though my knee-jerk reaction is that if the person consented before their death then it's really no one's business.

"Corrosion"? That's some serious juices you've got leaking out there.

Pretty please let's move away from conflating homosexuality with necrophilia and incest. We get enough of that from Santorum and his ilk.

coercion*)) Danm auto-correct >.<

edited 9th Sep '12 12:29:50 PM by LMage

Okay lets not get off topic guys.

Guys... I know about the population bias on this and everything... but every time you say "Christian" and "Churches", I've always got to hold myself back by saying "US... US... US..."

Half of what you suggest to be views of "Christians", I can't recognise around me. UK... we seem to do a lot of things differently... <sighs> As does most of Europe.

To be honest... even in South Africa, where some really offensive "missionaries" from the US like to take up shop, some attitudes didn't wash. Sadly though... the homophobia did. Thanks for that... From what I hear, it wasn't so big a deal until we did get American brands of hell-fire imported... At least, not to the same degree.

edited 9th Sep '12 12:43:56 PM by Euodiachloris

It's tangentially related. Religions tend to take a stance on what is correct sexual relationships (it's wrong unless it fits this criteria). A number of people take the stance "as long as no sapient creature is taken advantage of, it's fine" which takes the opposite stance (it's fine unless it fits this criteria). But other than that, it's kind of off topic.

I get the same. Hell we just had the Archbishop of Canterbury say "We've not exactly been on the forefront of pressing for civic equality for homosexual people and we were wrong about that,".

edited 9th Sep '12 3:17:30 PM by Silasw