German Politics Thread

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Can you maybe put this in another, less condescending way?

Done. Sry I am a bit tired about repeating the same arguments over and over again and that has probably influenced my chooce of word.

edited 19th Nov '16 6:59:32 AM by Zarastro

I haven't claimed that the UK or France did well with it's former colonies...I claimed that Germany did extend aid without strings attached, out of a sense of responsibility above all.

And if you have a point concerning Austerity, make it, instead of doing the equivalent of screaming "wrooooong!!!!".

Regarding our former colonies, I think what you can safely say that a) we had no opportunity to start a war like with France and Algeria, and none of them are currently in danger of being overrun by terrorists. Which is probably because we had less time to screw up (although we did some horrible things, e.g. the Herero genocide), because we are more keen on soft power and in general had fewer colonies to begin with. The way France meddled with its' colonies after their independence often created other problems.

edited 19th Nov '16 9:20:33 AM by Zarastro

No doubt...it was a good thing that Bismark was against acquiring Colonies in the first place and that we lost control before we could do too much damage.

"My map of Africa lies in Europe." Hopefully Merkel'll remember this.

I mean she thankfully has learned from the Iraq war (which in opposition supported) and not brought Germany so far into another military adventure. Though I am a bit worried about Mali... .

Like I said, come to the Economics thread so that we may have this discussion in the full measure it deserves, rather than doing the equivalent of screaming "you lazy coward!"

Also, Multiple Exclamation Marks? Are you also calling me insane?

Likewise, please come to the Economics thread and enlighten the community on how Krugman is ignorant and ruinous.

edited 19th Nov '16 9:48:31 AM by TheHandle

I did so many times on the thread about the debt crisis. It simply does not matter if Krugman's suggestion would work, although there is reasonable doubt about it, particulary in the case of Greece. What he suggests is impossible to implement. Both in a legal way and a political way.

It is the equivalent of a European saying that Obama should have run a 3rd time as president? It is against the constitution? Chance the constitution if it does not work! People might not accept it and not vote for him? People are stupid and politicians should do what is necessary!

edited 19th Nov '16 9:56:11 AM by Zarastro

Well, I must have missed that, because I do not recall a single point of the rationale. Link to the relevant posts, if you have to.

Essentially, Handle, his point was that Germany was not interested in bailing out Greece unless Greece got with Germany's program (which meant austerity). Political rather than economic considerations in the first place.

Understand that the German export economy is currently built on austerity and a degree of impoverishment of the rest of the EU - which is how Germany itself functions despite its ordoliberal policies.

That's a really shitty "reason".

Germany is propping itself up by keeping everyone else down? That's neocolonial behaviour, literally at its finest.

Why Krugman's suggestions have no practicial value:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13209334290A57885700&page=97

Constitutional restraints under which Merkel has to operate while trying to solve the debt crisis:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13209334290A57885700&page=121

Reasons why a transfer union would not work in the long run:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13209334290A57885700&page=159

And so on.

To make it short, Krugman's proposals either violate European/German law or go fundamently against the wishes of European electorates. Yes, European, not simply German.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/09/poorer-than-greece-the-eu-countries-that-reject-a-new-athens-bailout

Which is why it could not be further from the truth.

edited 19th Nov '16 11:07:57 AM by Zarastro

Wait tick... what happened in Namibia is "not much damage"? What.

Germany may not have had it long, but... Nobody gets away with calling the almost extinction of two major tribes and the wiping out of a lifestyle of many more "not much damage". Read. Germany shoulders a lot of the blame for the destruction of the Hunter gatherer way of life in Southwest Africa. It's not all on Britain and South Africa.

And, what happened in the Caprivi Strip was concentrated Belgian Free State. On a much smaller population and with little economic "justification".

"Not much damage..." GO THERE AND SAY THAT.

For the record, Greece had a choice...either accepting the bail-out terms, following Schäubels plan and leaving the Euro or just allowing the situation to slide down even further. They didn't want to leave the Euro, so there is that.

Otherwise, those who talk about pumping more money into Greece have two things in common: They don't care for details like existing law and that doing so would ultimately hit countries which are on the poor side themselves, or that ALL the EU states had a vote and were against it (in short, they don't care for the practical aspect of it), and they all work off the assumption that Greece will use said money the way it is supposed to, ignoring the fact that deep-rooted corruption, a dysfunctional tax-system and continuous overspending lead to the problems in the first place.

In addition, I think it is very interesting that the cry against "austerity" is about Greece again. Silly me, I actually thought that (since we were talking about the upcoming elections) the issue was the austerity the German government has put on itself. Because, you know, that is what the voters in Germany actually care about, that Germany invests in countless other states and bails out Greece every few years while there are next to no investments made in our own infrastructure.

Sorry, it wasn't my intention to sound callous...I keep seeing this in the context what other colonial powers did, and what might have happened if those states had still be under the control of Germany when Hitler took over. It was bad, but it could have been so much worse, and I am just glad that Germany learned its lesson in this regard and did better in its current form.

edited 19th Nov '16 11:30:52 AM by Swanpride

I did say that Germany did some horrible things like the Herero genocide. It was good that we lost the colonies because who knows what kind of crimes we'd added to the list. And of course, with them being independent from us for 100 years (although other powers took them later after WWI), we could not screw up their political system too much in the meantime.

Or indeed, if Merkel could actually do those things.

http://www.aicgs.org/issue/waiting-on-karlsruhe/

edited 19th Nov '16 11:35:31 AM by Zarastro

The EU being used as an excuse for national elites to ignore the popular will is hardly news. For the record, austerity, very roughly speaking, is only a good idea when you need to slow down an economy that is in danger of overheating.

Otherwise, what you want is efficiency, i.e. spending smartly. Of course pumping money into Greece is pointless if Greek elites just pocket it into bank accounts. But, I remember, back when Spain had recently joined the EU, their funds were infamous for coming with extremely stringent supervision of what money went to what purposes, forcing the local politicians to forego corruption and act with utter transparency. I do not understand why a similar thing couldn't be done about Greece today.

Difference is that Spain actually followed the rules set. Greece didn't. They keep stalling implementing improvements they already agreed to do. Which is exactly the problem. As long as Greece keeps proving itself to be an unreliable partner, it is impossible to pump money into its economy. Other states, which DID meet the expectations set out for them already got rewarded for it.

And yes, naturally I want efficiency. I am German. What do you expect?

Also, you will find that there is very little sympathy for Greece in the population of a lot of countries. For them, they really don't see why they should pay up for the overspending of another state.

edited 19th Nov '16 12:37:41 PM by Swanpride

Yes, in many situations people will prefer the fair solution to the good one.

Well then, is it fair that hardworking Greek citizens pay the price for the hubris and corruption of their leaders? And whose fault is it that their political culture got all fucked up in the first place? (Not Germany, but that's not my point.)

Spaniards likewise got accused of laziness, even though they've never worked so hard. They have a reputation among Northern Europeans as a party and relaxation country, but who do you think tends the bars and waits the tables and builds and maintains those summer houses and retirement resorts?

edited 19th Nov '16 12:52:52 PM by TheHandle

Corruption and tax evasion are endemic in Greece and many ordinary Greeks participated in it.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/03/greece-corruption-alive-and-well

Why should old retirees in Luthuania pay for the Greeks?

For the records, Greeks are not lazy. They work more than any other Europeans.

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/welcome/?toURL=http://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2015/03/13/contrary-to-what-most-people-think-greeks-work-the-longest-hours-in-europe-infographic/&refURL=https://www.google.de/&referrer=https://www.google.de/

They are however also quick to plunder their state's treasury.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/world/greece-zakyntos-island-of-the-blind-scam-822595

edited 19th Nov '16 12:56:35 PM by Zarastro

I dunno, why should people from Munich pay for those in Dresde?

That is becoming increasingly controversial as well.

Solidarity's harsh to live out when it doesn't seem to make sense at first glance.

edited 19th Nov '16 1:12:16 PM by TheHandle

There's been constant talk about finally getting rid of the Soli because at this point it doesn't make much sense anymore. The former GDR states often have far better infrastructure these days than the old ones - I'm originally from a town in North Rhine-Westphalia and the communes there often struggle to repair the streets after a harsh winter.

If that were the case, you'd think the policy would have ways to self-adjust to the change in status quo. German lawmakers tend to be pretty good at anticipating this sort of thing (compare their handling of PV energy subsidy to that of Spain, for instance), so my guess is you're not getting the whole picture, or rather, you're getting a misleading picture. How often do they have better infrastructures? How much better? What is the state of North Rhine-Westphalia as a whole? What is the ex-GDR lands' state as a whole?

edited 19th Nov '16 1:16:09 PM by TheHandle