German Politics Thread

I know there are other German tropers posting here, so hopefully this thread will see activity. Plus, of course, there surely are other tropes with interest in German politics. If not, well, then it was a nice attempt, heh. But hey, if even Finland gets to have its own politics thread... [tongue]*

Anyway, the Saar elections were a blast. I mean, we already knew from the beginning it would be a Grand Coalition, and it doesn't matter who leads it (though the CDU's 5% lead on the SPD is surprising and a real victory for them), however - 1.2% only for the FDP and 7.6% for the Pirates! Hahaha, I really enjoyed seeing that. Quite the beginning to the series of state election coming up...

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic

I just want to say at this point that this thread was opened by me. So you, too!

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

Who's the FDP?

Hrm, why did the smilie tags in my OP not work? Anyway, thanks Best, it was indeed you whom I had in mind, heh.

The FDP is the German liberal party. That is, European terminology, so kinda like libertarian, especially currently, though historically European liberalism and also the FDP also had bouts of caring more for civil rights than low taxes. Definitely not nowadays, though. Nowadays, the FDP is all about making tax gifts to businesses, and that's why they're currently from a spectacular 14% in the last federal elections to 3% in the polls currently. Really nobody likes them currently, it unites the political spectrum , though they still are the junior coalition partner of Merkel's CDU on the federal level.

It should be mentioned German elections are all Proportional Representation, with a threshold of 5% - if you don't get that, you don't get in. So the FDP is out of the Saar parliament, and if there were federal elections right now, they would go from being junior government member to being out of parliament. Meanwhile, 7.3% for the Pirates mean they get in. In their first election in the Saar, nonetheless! Yarrr!

edited 25th Mar '12 5:31:15 PM by Octo

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Thanks for opening an interesting thread. I'll be following this closely.

As for the reason the smileys didn't work in your OP, my answer is going to be one that all honest intellectuals love to hear and give when it's appropriate: "I have no idea."

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

I know this is a silly question, but what exactly are the political positions of the Pirates?

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.

The most honest answer would be even the Pirates don't know 100% for sure...

The thing is there are some core points they all agree on, but for some reason they decided they need to become a proper party, with programmatic positions in all fields. However, there are still great differences in positions especially in economical and welfare politics among the different state sections of the party, with a to be expected north-south divide. I think they would have done better to remain a "single issues party" about civil rights and net policy, though OTOH their successes prove they must have done something right.

The Pirates really are a netborn party. The original Pirate Party was founded in Sweden, in reaction to the Pirate Bay trial. As such, freedom of the internet and reform of the copyright/patent laws are still core foundations of the Pirate Party (the German one, and also all other ones). However, despite some claims they're just a party of internet copy thieves, in my experience opposition to censorship and surveillance and demands for political transparency have become their most important core topics. Oh, and they can all agree on a general affinity for direct democracy *

*

Or in other words, Wagrid's reaction to my explanation of the party was to jokingly ask if I had founded it

Beyond that, the German Pirate Party also agreed on some other issues beyond the core topics, making them stand out among the others a bit (but then hey, they're currently the largest and most successful one by far, outshining even the Swedish original). What I can remember from off top of my head is demanding to legalize of drugs and proposing a basic income guarantee. Especially the latter is still controversial inside the party, though. In general, finding a position in every field of politics is still an ongoing process inside the party, so hence even the Pirates aren't yet 100% sure, heh. But they're progressing.

edited 25th Mar '12 6:32:12 PM by Octo

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...huh. I have to admit, that's a little weird to someone used to a two-party system. Makes sense, though. Thanks.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.

Is the Saar a regional government or some weird parliament name I've never heard before? It sounds pretty important.

Germany is a federal Republic composed of several states, kinda like the USA. The states here have much less authority than in America, but the principle is the same. The Saar (or Saarland, though usually in English it's just translated as 'the Saar') is one of sixteen German states. It is actually the smallest non-city state, economically not very sound after the end of coal mining which once made it so important and demographically over-aged, so no, not very important at all.

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Well, the way you were talking about the elections made it sound important. Is this like a predictor of things to come in future German elections?

I'll take that, if you don't mind, Octo. (Of course you'll ninja me.)

Germany is divided into 16 states (or rather, it's united from 16 states,) each of which has a long history and a pretty distinct culture and identity, though I doubt that anyone's identity regarding their state is stronger than their identity as German.

One very prominent way that German states are visible in Europe is how they are referenced in the names of things from those states, especially football teams. The most succesful team in Germany is Bayern München (of which I'm a fan,) and of course it's from the state of Bavaria (or Bayern in German,) just as Bayer Leverkusen is. Look at the logo of Bayern München and then take a look at the crest of Bavaria.

Here's a map from Wikipedia. It's very convenient 'cause it lets you click any of the states and go right to that state's article.

Each state has its own unicameral legislature and its own Minister-President. They're of course elected in regular elections conforming to the principle of proportional representation.

So, right now we're talking about elections in Saarland, which borders France and is one of the more Southern states (to give you some clue of its location.)

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

Yeah, that's it, basically. In two months there are state elections in Schleswig-Holstein and North Rhine-Westphalia, and the latter is the most populous state. In those two states, competition between the two big parties will actually be interesting, and as for the small parties, they will be chances for the Pirates to continue their successes (the Saar was the second state parliament they entered, after Berlin), and for the FDP to continue their failing (for them it was the sixth state election in line where they were kicked out of parliament). Plus of course, if you have just 16 states instead of 50, and no separate elections for executive and legislative, state elections are always at least somewhat important, heh.

Thanks, but Leverkusen is actually in NRW, and named for the pharmacy company Bayer Used to be the factory team of their Leverkusen factory. Also, often those regional football names are historical - Borussia (as in Dortmund and Mönchengladbach) means "Prussia" for example, and yet those cities were only part of Prussia 1815-1945... but that was the time the clubs were founded in.

edited 25th Mar '12 7:17:31 PM by Octo

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Yay, we got our own thread. I'll try to chime in from time to time, but real life is keeping me away from the internet quite thoroughly these days. Disclaimer: I am a former member of the SPD and, nowadays, a supporter of the Pirates. Thus, my views may be biased. Sorry. :)

State elections (like in the Saarland yesterday) are important not only because of the future trends they might set, but also because of our de facto bicameral system. A lot of our federal laws have to pass the Bundesrat (federal council), which is composed of representatives of the 16 states. A grand coalition, like it seems to be forming in the Saarland, usually abstains from voting.

I'm not sure about that, regional (not state) identities matter a lot in Germany. For example, I'd always say that my primary cultural identity is that of a Rheinländer, not that of a German.

—

Not having strong political positions and admitting ignorance is actually one of the selling points of the Pirates. That, and the fact that its the only liberal (in the anglo-saxon sense) party left. It's less about what they do, it's more about how they do it: For example, they allow the transferring of votes on their conventions, both topic-wise and general, thus forming a kind of small scale reputation-based swarm intelligence. (For further reading on that topic, I highly recommend Demon and Freedom(tm) by Daniel Suarez.)

Quite a few of their members actually say that their goal is to reform the way politics are done, and then disband as a political party. Here in Berlin, for example, they are heavily lobbying to strip the executive branch of their the legislative initiative (i.e. the right to propose laws) and leaving it with the state parliament.

edited 26th Mar '12 12:16:59 AM by kurushio

Yeah, but those people are rather in the minority, aren't they? Hence all the attempts to find positions and stances in every political field; a majority of people wants to make the Pirates a proper party, instead of a tool to push through some ideas. Which, IMO, is the wrong way to go, but that's what seems to be happening.

Also, really most people do identify as Germans first. If they bother to identify themselves as anything at all, granted. In any case, identification with the states is usually rather low, if one's not Bavarian, seeing as so many are artificial creations.

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How do German people feel about the EU and the Eurozone?

Dutch Lesbian

IMO, it's the wrong way, too. But at least their way of finding positions and stances is different from the rest of the political landscape, which I know from personal experience, and which I twice left, disgusted. I think the Pirates deserve a chance, whether they can uphold their promises remains to be seen.

I'm not sure I'd sign that (except for the 'if they bother at all' part), but living in Berlin (and far away from the Rhine for most of my life) might have tainted my views on that topic. If someone knows studies about identity and identfication among Germans, let me know. :)

Tough to say. According to the last (2011) Eurobarometer polls by the European Commission, 42 % of the Germans think the EU is moving in the right direction, 20 % think it isn't, 8 % don't know - and 30 % say neither the right nor the wrong direction, which is kind of funny. ('Huh? It's moving?')

But it's a difficult question. It's a big country, at least by European standards, and opinions vary wildly. I think, and that's mostly my personal experience and opinion, that in general the Union is seen a tiny bit more positively than in most other European countries. But it very much depends on which aspect of it you focus on.

Personally, I am a somewhat critical supporter of it. I think it's the right idea, but it needs a lot of work, and it desperately needs to emphasize that it's about more than just money.

Only 1.2%? I guess Fast Drei Prozent is starting to sound optimistic.

Blind Final Fantasy 6 Let's Play

As Germany has a codified constitution (the Basic Law, I believe) how does that cope with the supremacy of Union law?

I can only talk about myself here, but I agree with that. While I do identify as Saxon, I don't place much importance in it and it doesn't influence my decision to stay in Berlin (instead of moving to a Saxon city, like Leipzig or Dresden).

I don't really have much interest (and trust) in politics, so I'm not all that knowledgable in it, though. But I think that the Pirates, if they will exist that long, will take the same path as the Greens (who were quite "different" back in their early days) and become a party like every other.

edited 28th Mar '12 12:07:31 AM by Nyarly

People aren't as awful as the internet makes them out to be.

Yeah. If it weren't for historical reasons and the fact that they're taking part in the federal government, the FDP would only be mentioned in the 'also running' part of the result graphics. Even the Family Party got more votes. :)

Okay, that's a complicated topic riddled with legalese, but I'll try to translate: Article 23 (changed in 1992) of the Basic Law deals with that, it allows the transfer of sovereign rights to the Union. A transfer like that has to be done like most important laws, with agreement by both the federal parliament and the states' representatives in the federal council.

Should Union law, however, require changes to the Basic Law, article 79 comes into play. (It deals with how the Basic Law can be changed.) For this, 2/3 majorities by both the parliament and the council are needed. Changes of Germany's federal structure or of the first 20 articles of the Basic Law (dealing with human rights) are not allowed.

Article 23 only allows all this stuff as long as those basic human rights remain more or less untouched by the Union, and as long as the Union is founded on democratic, rule of law, social and federal principles. It also has to remain true to the concept of subsidiarity.

tl;dr: Why, with lawyers, of course.

Hey, a local troper! (And no, I wouldn't move back to the Rhein region, either.)

edited 28th Mar '12 12:10:58 AM by kurushio

Yeah, the Saar elections were fun, my only regret is that the Greens did indeed make it (at exactly 5%), the Saar greens annoy me :/

Currently i wonder just how long, now that its over, Oskar Lafontaine (former SPD and head of government of the Saarland, currently leading the Left party there) will stay here and when he will return to the Federal Level.

Also, how about a little game? I call it Rösler bingo. Philip Rösler is currently the chief of the FDP and its a tipping game when exactly he finally loses that job. My guess is after the NRW elections.

edited 28th Mar '12 1:11:43 AM by 3of4

"You can reply to this Message!"

I'm in, and I think they'll throw him out earlier. April 17.

Is Rosler really that bad? They already got rid of Westerwelle less than a year ago.

Blind Final Fantasy 6 Let's Play

So how are things different in Germany between different states? (in regards to culture, standard of living, attitudes towards the federal system, that sort of thing.) For instance how is eastern Germany now in terms of development compared to the west?

Also, I was surprised to find Germany had the highest levels of diabetes in Europe. The Germans always struck me as being really healthy.

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.