Halal and other religions

If the bolt gun failing was the only problem, they'd just take another shot. The problem is making everything go at careless assembly-line speed because money.

Relevant.

edited 21st Feb '12 3:12:38 PM by Pykrete

Yeah, I'm having trouble getting this "halal/kosher" is a problem, considering nothing is being said of kosher and secular methods being far far worse, are not getting this type of attention. This is as idiotic as the PETA and other animal rights groups that managed to get the clubbing of seals in Canada banned and thought, what a victory, when guns almost invariably led to seals suffering due to inaccurate shots and the clubbing were instant-kills. Then they went ahead and called all native people in Canada as barbarians.

This feels like the same stupid logic being applied here. Make a statement about how slicing the throat isn't good enough, ignore the fact that all secular practices are much worse, and then try to get it banned based on this.

edited 21st Feb '12 3:18:00 PM by breadloaf

"secular" doesn't mean anything here. Different countries will have different standards and even then different methods for different livestock and different production methods.

In the UK, where I have seen slaughtering methods that seem more humane than some executions, the only issue reconciling the halal procedures with everything else has been in the stunning blow made to the head immediately before the animal is bled out. With halal meat the animal has to be properly bled and not subjected to anything extraneous to killing it so they don't knock it out. The animal should have a quick cut with a full heart rate, not be seal-clubbed and clumsily stabbed while its blood congeals. So they don't want to knock it out.

But really that one small problem is rather stupid. No, the stunning effect is not like a hammer blow, the blood flow even works better because there is less struggling and less pain-your method might be the best way to do it conscious but it's better to be unconscious- and the electric knock out does not do anything like putting it in the class of carrion. It's just that the little illogical men who are experts in rules lawyering small deals in complicated ways feel better when they can argue about the semantics of the situation rather than looking at the actual situation because that priviledges them above everybody else.

I think we need to cut through religious stuff and focus on the main issue: Is killing livestock with Halal less or more humane then the normal 'secular' slaughter techniques?

hashtagsarestupid

I'd say that in theory, they're about the same. In practice, halal/kosher is probably more humane for the reasons Pykrete posted.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

As far as I've seen, secular methods are less humane than Halal/Kosher methods. That being said, most of the muslims/jews I talk to that actually care are quite sure nobody is following the rules anyway due to capitalism (which is the reason why the secular methods are "less humane" but really end up being exactly the same).

edited 21st Feb '12 4:51:54 PM by breadloaf

I don't really see any problem with halal method of slaughtering, honestly. Regarding actual pain felt by the animals, according to Wikipedia, a study using electrodes showed that animals felt less pain with "ritual cuts" compared to captive bolt stunning. However, Wikipedia also mentions that said study might have been carried out "improperly" somehow. And that the Wikipedia page in question has a neutrality problem, which makes it a bit less helpful in making a judgement on the issue.

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It's a rather big niche too, what with the number of Muslims on the planet. Although, goes without saying that there's more potential for profit in places with a significant number of Muslims.

edited 21st Feb '12 10:33:41 PM by ThatHuman

something

^^Yes it is pretty hard to judge an other's suffering. All you can really do is ask yourself if you would pick bleeding out over a straight bludgeoning death.

edited 22nd Feb '12 7:43:46 AM by joeyjojo

hashtagsarestupid

considering bleeding out by the neck means pain for a couple seconds followed by total loss of consciousness, versus being beat to death with a hammer and hoping the first crack works, I think I'd go with the first. especially since with factory conditions the way they are, bolt guns arent always positioned right.

@Some Sort of Troper bismillah joke: "I see a little silhouetto of a calf..."

@Everyone: The question is, does the religious nature of halal execution grant excetional treatment or exemption from the main humane-ness standards? Because if it doesn't, this discussion is solved: Halal and Kosher are OK, period.

edited 24th Feb '12 1:26:55 PM by MarkThis

Thing is, though, even if it doesn't grant an exemption, they're pretty humane anyway. They just look icky.

What's precedent ever done for us?

Are you going to force people to change their ancient customs that are tied to their immutable religious beliefs (which are already aimed at minimizing the animal's pain) so that they will have to treat animals somewhat more humanely in the act of killing them?

We're not just men of science, we're men of TROPE!

Well, theoretically more humanely.

Of course, surely this raises the issue of why we're applying ethics - a human construct - to things that aren't human.

Well, you don't have to have a human mind to think that pain is bad and a situation where there is less of it is preferable. Where things get dodgy is when you assume that things like 'dignity' or 'privacy' matter to animals. No, a slaughterhouse production line is not in any way dignified, but I don't think the animals care about dignity. Equally, I don't think that concepts like 'consent' and 'rape' mean anything to some animals either.

Be not afraid...

So is it or is it not okay to screw a goat?

That's up to the goat.

Because of Spiderman. Y'know, 'with great power etc. etc.'.

edited 26th Feb '12 6:11:07 AM by InverurieJones

'All he needs is for somebody to throw handgrenades at him for the rest of his life...'

@Treblain: One could actually use the "it was made to be painless in the first place" against the practice if it could be proven that the other method is "more painless". A spirit-of-the-law thing.

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."

Well, on occasion, during a slow news day, you might hear some backbencher spin a story about how Halal is a threat to America, but from what I've seen, it's simply not that much on the American news radar. And it shouldn't be - what's next, them claiming that Fish Fridays are an insidious Catholic threat to take over the country?

They aren't?

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.