All-Purpose Nasuverse Fanfiction Thread

To save Sakura early on?

Of course, by that point, he's really lost all interest in saving people, it seems.

However, while his personality isn't the greatest, you can't really hate someone with a line as great as "Damn. Looks like things are about to get a little violent."

Why? Does he even know anything about Sakura's situation? I mean, you can complain all you want about him leaving Rin to Shinji (though what do you want him to do, fight Gilgamesh when he's at 10%?), but it's not like he has perfect knowledge of the situation in the 5th Grail War.

I mean, he literally can't remember Rin's name when he is summoned.

I was just guessing.

But yeah, he really doesn't remember the events of his Fifth Holy Grail war all that well.

You're using too modern a definition of 'hero'. Go back to Herakles and Gilgamesh and Knights of the Round Table, and a 'hero' is a sociopath who does what he wants and pulls it off with style. Heck, that's why we have the Punisher and similar. In some circles, that's STILL the definition of 'hero'. EMIYA shooting for his goal, regardless of obstacles and moral quibbles? still counts as 'heroic', in a meta sense.

One of the interesting things Fate does is that it uses MANY diverse definitions of 'hero', as exemplified by the different Servants. Saber is the closest of them to the current modern definition of hero. Specifically, she's a hero in the sense of some of the grimmer versions of Batman is: driven, determined, makes shady decisions and actions (in comparison to Shiro, see next) but is ultimately good. Shiro is a hero in the sense of Superman: absolute good and evil, fighting for truth, justice and the 'mummble mummble' way. Also a 'stupid good' hero.

Berseker represents all Greek heroes, with is a tradition in itself, and given his exploits in myth he's certainly representative. Illya is a 'revenge' hero like the count of Monte Cristo, since in a lot of human history revenge is NOT seen as a bad thing, and was a form of justice. Rider is a villain protagonist-type hero, referring to the phenomenon where a hero in one culture is a villain in another. Romanians consider Vlad Tepesh a hero, but I doubt the Ottoman empire thinks the same.

Rin would be, strangely, an 'honorable' hero, who is essentially being 'heroic' (again, for a certain value of 'heroic') because her role and responsibilities require her to be so. Possibly an 'everyday' hero kinda thing, like a police officer or fireman. She's not in it for the glory, she's there to do her job.

(Fake) Assassin is the most literal, being a fictional, story book hero in-universe. Lancer is essentially a 90's dark hero, or a modern anti-hero, with a grim-dark concept (ultimate warrior of Ireland)with a softer and lighter execution (no warp spasm), so perhaps he's a 90's animated cartoon hero? EMIYA, as mentioned, is a self-centered, protagonist morality hero. Gilgamesh is even more so, and can essentially be seen as all previous mention heroes combined, fitting with his in-story role as first and source of all heroes.

Sakura would be a Victorian Novel Gothic Romance hero, or possibly a martyr hero. Zouken is a 'fallen' hero, one who has lost his way. No one cares about Shinji. True Assassin might be a deconstruction of glorified criminal heroes like Robin Hood, Che Guevarra, Billy the Kid, gangsters, yakuza, etc. A 'heroic' veneer covering up them being a criminal, even for their time (Robin Hood ROBBED people, but he got good press, so he's okay...). Taiga is a comedic hero, and is in the wrong genre...

edited 20th Nov '14 9:05:51 PM by SCMof2814

Taiga's not in the wrong genre. She changes the genre around her with her mere presence. This ability does not work while unconscious, which is why Caster could use her as a hostage in UBW.

What about the rest?

edited 20th Nov '14 9:07:58 PM by SCMof2814

I do believe that Taiga's actually saved the world at least three times by merely existing since she has the equivalent of EX Rank Luck so you're actually on to something.

If the Einzbern Consultation Room OVA is to be believed, she kept the end of the 4th Grail war from being worse by stopping Iris' spirit from messing with the Grail.

I think that trying to have everybody fulfill a different archetype is counter to how F/SN treats heroism. Ultimately, everything in F/SN is about Shirou's desire to save people. Saber and Archer both show ways that can go awry. Rin questions his reasons to save others, and his inability to enjoy himself. Sakura turns the vague masses that he wants to save into a concrete person to protect, as does Illya.

Would Miyu be the same as the latter two also, if we include that version of him?

Probably. However, Prisma does not have the theme of "what it means to save somebody/desire to save everybody" that Stay Night does, nor does it have a focus on Shirou. As such, it isn't realy relevant to the topic.

@Sc Mof But Shirou didn't set out to be a kind of Protagonist that was once considered a "hero" he set out to be the modern definition of a hero. Do not misunderstand me here I understand why EMIYA qualifies as a "hero" in terms of being a figure worthy or song and legend but he originally tried to be a heroic character in the sense of being forthright and just before falling into a pit of his own self-loathing and self-pity. I'm not criticizing his existence as a character I'm criticizing his failures as a man who wanted to be a hero of justice.

@gwonbush Given Zouken's time and effort placed into Sakura I cannot see a scenario where Shirou and Zouken didn't eventually come into conflict wither over his treatment of Sakura or because of some other scheme he concocted using her. Just because Zouken remains unfought in Fate in UBW does not mean that his threat never had to be faced. Let us not forget that Shirou and Sakura were at least close friends and as I don't see Zouken giving up his tool even with a missed opportunity of a Fifth Grail War, I can only see him and S Hirou coming to blows eventually in any timeline that could lead to the creation of Archer. Furthermore, given A Rchers apparent recollection of Ilya and Rin's personality quirks as well as a thorough understanding (and loathing of Shirou's mindset at the time, I'd say he has a general idea of most of the major players and even with a scrambled memory i think he'd remember that Zouken is not only a class a monster but also a serious threat to the world at large. And I get it his priority is self-destruction and all that but it still puts him in a pretty foolish light. And yest he does overcome his goals in every route but man could he have used this opportunity so much better

(P.S. Sorry for the rant but Archer really did spend pretty much the entire story holding the stupid ball and yet so few people notice.)

edited 20th Nov '14 10:31:22 PM by PhoenixKnight6

He succeeded in his lifetime. It's what he had to do AFTER he died that screwed him up. If I understand correctly, as a Counter Guardian he has to go from crisis to crisis with no rest in between, no downtime and KILL EVERYONE THERE, no survivors. Even discounting PTSD, the sheer reversal from what he did in life— save everyone/as many as he could— to 'kill everyone, leave no survivors, have no downtime to adjust, no friends to talk to, didn't just make him suicidal, they made him literally nihilistic. There's being a hero, and then there's breaking into teeny tiny pieces.

edited 20th Nov '14 10:03:27 PM by SCMof2814

Shirou's going off away from Fuyuki in a year after the 5th Grail War. It's highly likely that Archer never finds out about Sakura's situation, and never meets Zouken.

I mean Shirou first meets Zouken in Heaven's Feel route, 5 years after being friends with Shinji (involving many visits to Shinji's house) and 1.5 years of having Sakura come over. And when you consider how Sakura wants Shirou to have no clue about her situation in the first place, I find it more likely for the trend of Shirou being utterly clueless about what goes on in the Matou household to continue.

edited 20th Nov '14 10:09:20 PM by gwonbush

Fair point. Anyone'd be pretty warped after being used as a weapon of slaughter by Alaya but would it not simpler to tell Shirou to never make a contract with Alayah? Tell him that it will lead him to slaughtering countless people? I mean by doing this roudabout crap he risks Shirou becoming a counter-guardian in every route.

And he never checks back on Sakura? I'm sorry but I just don't buy it. Rin's going to be interested and even in Fate they end up as close friends so if she finds out so does he and she can't leave Sakura completely alone and that still goes back to my point of Zouken is going to find a way to make use of Sakura and you can bet it won't be pleasant.

I'm beginning to think I should blame Nasu for this as much as Archer for not thinking things through.

He does? I know he does in the UBW route since he heads to London with Rin (at least in the True End) but he leaves after the Fate route as well? What does he do, start Walking the Earth?

Nasu lore confuses and frightens me, but I think the idea is that if EMIYA talks Shirou into not being a Counter Guardian, EMIYA is still stuck with the job because time weirdness. Knifing Shirou will, somehow, paradox harder than that and make EMIYA go poof as well, unless that's just wishful thinking on EMIYA's part.

Actually yeah, i don't recall him leaving in those other endings either.

Fair enough. I guess release would be more important by that point. And given Nasuverse's internal logic EMIYA may well be stuck even if he averts his timeline. Doesn't make it right though, and even if it was he could save killing Shirou for last and resolve the other threats.

edited 20th Nov '14 10:39:15 PM by PhoenixKnight6

Shirou's going to follow in Kiritsugu's footsteps, especially the Shirou who became Archer. And visiting maybe once a year for a day or two isn't going to reveal truths that constant close contact didn't uncover.

And really, the whole paradox plan is highly unlikely to work in the first place. Even Archer admits that he doesn't think it will really work. He's just taking his frustration out on his foolish past self.

edited 20th Nov '14 10:38:31 PM by gwonbush

Then I take back my take back regarding Archer. He's just playing to his own self-loathing and being immature. He actually lives in Fuyuki in the good end of UBW does he not? And even if I accept that the True End specifically was what led to it I cannot see a scenario where Rin never uncovers this and in any such scenario where she and Shirou both survive the Grail war he is going to get involved, Rin will bring him in for this. Furthermore, Zouken's designs make him a threat to the world at large I can see him causing trouble with Sakura's unique talents even without the Grail.

Huh? Archer's Fifth Holy Grail War was similar to the Fate route just probably without him falling in love with Saber.

He's grasping for the tiniest hope for his eternal hell to end.

And no, he doesn't stay in either end of UBW, even though Rin offers to reinstate their contract after he makes his reappearance at the end of the Gil fight (saving both Rin and Shirou). He knows it's not in his place to remain, especially without an objective of his own. He tells Rin to take care of him (referring to Shirou) and not to worry about it, fading with a very Shirou-like smile.

Well as I recall Nasu at one point said that any route could lead to Archer possibly did he not?

I was talking about in his backstory, before he was a Servant.

edited 20th Nov '14 10:51:07 PM by PhoenixKnight6

It's more like each route has a small (how small depends on route) chance of Shirou ending up like Archer, even though Archer doesn't come from any of the routes.

UBW Good almost certainly ends in going to London. I mean, it's not like Rin isn't going. And Saber will have to go too, being supported by Rin. And Shirou will probably follow. Of course, this is all mere speculation considering Rin's character and the general circumstances.

It's not like there's even 12 hours between Gil's death and what we see of UBW Good. I mean it goes Gil dies, Shirou falls unconscious, Archer fades, Shirou wakes up, Shirou makes breakfast, Shirou finds Saber in the dojo, Rin is displeased about how much attention Shirou is showing Saber.

edited 20th Nov '14 10:57:18 PM by gwonbush

Ah yes now I recall. Thanks for the clarification But even with a differing route, the implication does seem to be that he and Rin worked together in his version of the Fifth Holy Grail War leading me back to my earlier conclusion.

As for UBW good perhaps but that doesn't mean they never move back to Fuyki, and there's no way Rin's completely abandoning Sakura.

edited 20th Nov '14 10:56:20 PM by PhoenixKnight6