TV Tropes Org

Forums

On-Topic Conversations:
White Privilege
search forum titles
google site search
Total posts: [1,657]  1 ... 52 53 54 55 56
57
58 59 60 61 62 ... 67

White Privilege:

 1401 Vericrat, Thu, 3rd May '12 3:18:30 PM from .0000001 seconds ago
Like this, but brown.
[up][up][up]I have a few solutions, some of which we've talked about and some of which we haven't (or at least, as much).

1) Education: This one is twofold. First we work an upward integration of economically segregated school districts. Year 1, kindergartens are integrated. Year 2, 1st graders. Year 3, second graders. And so on. This allows children from more wealthy families interact with children from poorer families, providing a wider perspective that, hey, they're just like us, as well as putting kids in poorer districts into better schools, and it does it without the culture shock of kids who have already been entrenched in one type of schooling from interacting negatively with the other.

Put more funding in early-education for poorer families. Middle-class and richer (and therefore, usually white) kids have a huge head-start that makes it difficult for poorer kids to catch up.

Give college kids becoming teachers student loans from the government, then wipe out a year's worth of those loans each time the teacher teaches at the school and position the government wants and needs them at. This gives the government fresh teachers in schools where they're really needed.

Maybe also have kids 1-2/week have assigned seating at lunch, so whites don't gather and nonwhites gather like they do at most high schools.

2) More focus on trade skills for everyone: Not everyone is going (or should) go to college. It vocational skills are seen as having merit, then some of those kids who otherwise would have gone to college and failed out will go to trade schools. With that a more attractive option (than it is now), you'll have more middle-class kids going to trade schools and interacting with lower-class kids, and you'll free up spots in college for a more diverse environment.

3) Discourage an us-vs-them mentality. Nonwhites who don't do their job or are bad at it should be treated just like white people who do the same. I had a boss who waited months to fire a black girl even though she was terrible at her job, was consistently late, and had several no-call-no-shows. He feared retaliation in the form of a racial discrimination lawsuit. This pissed off other employees, who probably remembered the preferential treatment that the black employee got.

4) Nonwhites are going to have to conform to business standards that white people have set. This may seem unfair, because white people got to set these standards because of systematic racial oppression, but the business standard exists now, and nobody thinks of it as white or black, they think of it as "business." So no AAVE at work or interviews, look people in the eye because it is a sign of respect, use indoor voices, etc. If nonwhites can conform to business culture, they'll have a much easier time gaining positions within it, and therefore being able to affect changes they want to see in it.

edited 3rd May '12 3:18:54 PM by Vericrat

THIS IS A PSA: As of 1/1/13 there is a 1-year moratorium on No Pants Thursdays. Instead, we shall celebrate No Pants 2013.
NCC - 1701
[up] Mo F[awesome]
It was an honor
 1403 Loid, Thu, 3rd May '12 3:41:27 PM from Eastern Standard Time
"So no AAVE at work or interviews, look people in the eye because it is a sign of respect, use indoor voices, etc."

This is a tad racist.
"Dr. Strangeloid, or How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love The Cleanlink" - thespacephantom
 1404 Vericrat, Thu, 3rd May '12 3:50:08 PM from .0000001 seconds ago
Like this, but brown.
[up]How so?
THIS IS A PSA: As of 1/1/13 there is a 1-year moratorium on No Pants Thursdays. Instead, we shall celebrate No Pants 2013.
NCC - 1701
[up][up] Yeah, how?
It was an honor
 1406 Drunk Girlfriend, Thu, 3rd May '12 3:55:08 PM from Castle Geekhaven
I've got the same question. AAVE is considered unprofessional in the same way that the Cockney rhyming cant is. Unless it's another one of those things that's only racist when it happens to nonwhite people.
"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
 1407 Loid, Thu, 3rd May '12 4:30:52 PM from Eastern Standard Time
You're acting like us "nonwhites" (we are a completely homogenous group, I'm glad you noticed) don't know how to act at a job.
"Dr. Strangeloid, or How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love The Cleanlink" - thespacephantom
Unchanging Avatar.
First of all, you aren't being addressed. There wasn't a specific audience of all the nonwhite people, you just assumed it was directed towards you personally.

Second of all, no, he wasn't. Nobody made that accusation, or that generalization. It's dangerously close to a strawman.

Thirdly, some nonwhites don't. Some whites don't either. But statistically, slightly more nonwhites don't.

edited 3rd May '12 4:38:45 PM by Ultrayellow

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
 1409 Drunk Girlfriend, Thu, 3rd May '12 4:36:20 PM from Castle Geekhaven
@Loid: Dude, chill. There are people out there (in all colors, mind you) that don't know how to act at interviews. There's plenty of people out there that want to stick it to the man, and get all righteous about how they shouldn't have to conform to "white" ways of thinking. Like you said, we're not a homogeneous group.

But hey, I'm white, what do I know?

edited 3rd May '12 4:37:28 PM by DrunkGirlfriend

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
 1410 Loid, Thu, 3rd May '12 4:44:20 PM from Eastern Standard Time
Well, that'd be great and all, but he specifically pointed at "nonwhites", and most don't do that.

edited 3rd May '12 4:45:17 PM by Loid

"Dr. Strangeloid, or How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love The Cleanlink" - thespacephantom
 1411 Vericrat, Thu, 3rd May '12 4:47:11 PM from .0000001 seconds ago
Like this, but brown.
[up][up][up][up]Hm, I bet if I had said, "Black" I would have heard "it's not black and white, there are also Latinos, Asians, Natives, " etc. So I use one term, I'm generalizing and calling you homogeneous, but if I use another I'm making it a false dichotomy.

And the things I said are often cultural. Not looking someone in the eyes is respectful in some cultures. Learning to get past that in a work setting is less about "knowing how to act on a job, " and more about, "learning to conform to the business culture." Which, you'll notice, is what I was talking about.

EDIT:
Well, that'd be great and all, but he specifically pointed at "nonwhites", and most don't do that.

Since we are talking about how to improve the whole "nonwhites have a disadvantage" thing that we're discussing in this thread, I thought maybe I could address those problems by discussing what measures could be taken. Clearly, I must have been mistaken. It'd be great if you could show me where I said all or most nonwhites don't know how to act on the job. I suggested they assimilate into the business culture, and gave some examples. If you took that as, "All nonwhites (including myself) - who are all homogeneous in their worthlessness compared to the white overlords - don't know how to act on the job" then maybe reread it.

edited 3rd May '12 4:53:31 PM by Vericrat

THIS IS A PSA: As of 1/1/13 there is a 1-year moratorium on No Pants Thursdays. Instead, we shall celebrate No Pants 2013.
 1412 Ira The Squire, Thu, 3rd May '12 5:05:03 PM from No idea. Measuring speed
Phyrexian Dalek
[up]What culture thinks that looking in the eye is disrespectful?

Also, I think that you're omitting the "model minorities" when you talk about non-whites and their work ethics. Asians are (in)famous for working hard.

edited 3rd May '12 5:06:18 PM by IraTheSquire

 1413 Drunk Girlfriend, Thu, 3rd May '12 5:10:07 PM from Castle Geekhaven
@Ira: Odd that you bring up the Asian stereotype, since more than a few Asian and East Asian cultures find it more respectful to not make eye contact with a superior.
"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
 1414 Ira The Squire, Thu, 3rd May '12 5:11:55 PM from No idea. Measuring speed
Phyrexian Dalek
[up] I was never taught that. Strange.
 1415 Drunk Girlfriend, Thu, 3rd May '12 5:16:13 PM from Castle Geekhaven
Wikipedia has a very short section on eye contact across cultures, and more can be found via Google.
"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
 1416 Oh So Into Cats, Thu, 3rd May '12 5:26:32 PM from The Sand Wastes Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
CANON!!
Yes. I personally find the amount of eye contact required to make a lot of business people happy is very unnatural, but they demand it anyway.
"Beware of the wolves. They were raised by wolves."

Eidolonomics: ~60.4k/100,000 words
 1417 Vericrat, Thu, 3rd May '12 5:36:26 PM from .0000001 seconds ago
Like this, but brown.
@Ira: I was never talking about anybody's work ethic. I was talking about cultural characteristics that are or are not business standard. In a (much) earlier post, I referred to them as ISB's.
THIS IS A PSA: As of 1/1/13 there is a 1-year moratorium on No Pants Thursdays. Instead, we shall celebrate No Pants 2013.
Speaking as a Vietnamese-American here, yes, it is pretty rude (for Vietnamese, and probably other Asians as well) to look at authority figures in the eye. While I think that it's great that we're learning about business culture, it'd also be great if business culture could learn about other cultures. tongue

Most businessmen are white. There's nothing wrong with this in the modren day. However, it does raise the question—why? Just because it's the business standard now due to oppression in the past doesn't mean it needs to stay the business standard in the future.

Other than that nitpick, I like most of Vericrat's suggestions.

No, what is this? I promised I was staying away from TV Tropes. Arrrrrrgh...
 1419 Oh So Into Cats, Thu, 3rd May '12 7:14:52 PM from The Sand Wastes Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
CANON!!
wild mass guessBusinessmen use staring each other in the eye as a form of intimidation, which is why the people who do this are at the top and force this upon their subordinates.wild mass guess
"Beware of the wolves. They were raised by wolves."

Eidolonomics: ~60.4k/100,000 words
 1420 Ira The Squire, Thu, 3rd May '12 7:24:25 PM from No idea. Measuring speed
Phyrexian Dalek
[up]wild mass guess I thought they were trying to learn how to shoot lasers out if their eyes. wild mass guess
 1421 Vericrat, Thu, 3rd May '12 11:26:41 PM from .0000001 seconds ago
Like this, but brown.
While I think that it's great that we're learning about business culture, it'd also be great if business culture could learn about other cultures.

The sentiment is great, but I think the only way to really get that to happen is to get enough people who think the way you do about a given cultural norm (like eye contact) into key business positions to just average it out. And the reason I say that isn't because I think that that particular norm is good or bad, but rather that it's usually processed subconsciously.

What I mean is that if you don't look me in the eye when I'm talking to you, I'm not going to think, "Uh-oh, something's wrong here." I'm going to just subconsciously alter my perception to, "He's a little less trustworthy and confident." And since it's not a conscious thought, just learning that different cultures treat eye contact differently isn't going to help that much, because nobody's consciously choosing to think one way or the other.

[down]"Constant or unbroken" is the key phrase. I didn't mean that when I said eye contact. I just mean if someone will not make eye contact with me when I'm talking, not that they look around or at other things every now and then. But if they're constantly looking down or at anything but me, my instinct is that they're worried, uncomfortable, not confident, whatever.

edited 3rd May '12 11:34:34 PM by Vericrat

THIS IS A PSA: As of 1/1/13 there is a 1-year moratorium on No Pants Thursdays. Instead, we shall celebrate No Pants 2013.
 1422 Oh So Into Cats, Thu, 3rd May '12 11:31:35 PM from The Sand Wastes Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
CANON!!
Nevertheless, the seeking of constant unbroken eye contact by the other participant in a conversation can often be considered overbearing or distracting by many even in western cultures, possibly on an instinctive or subconscious level.

I kind of think instinct goes the other way, Veri.

edited 3rd May '12 11:31:48 PM by ohsointocats

"Beware of the wolves. They were raised by wolves."

Eidolonomics: ~60.4k/100,000 words
 1423 Loni Jay, Fri, 4th May '12 12:08:20 AM from Australia Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Yes, I think the instinct is definitely to avoid prolonged eye contact. I've been attacked by an animal before because I met its eyes for too long.
Be not afraid...
 1424 Barkey, Fri, 4th May '12 6:39:03 AM from Bunker 051 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
War Profiteer
I only use prolonged eye contact when I'm deliberately trying to make someone uncomfortable when I'm in my law enforcement role.

It doesn't build trust or confidence with most people, it makes them uncomfortable if you're constantly eye raping them when they aren't speaking and it's your part of the exchange.
The AR-15 is responsible for 95% of all deaths each year. The rest of the deaths are from obesity and drone strikes.
[up]

What, do you, like, interrogate people by staring at them?

Total posts: 1,657
 1 ... 52 53 54 55 56
57
58 59 60 61 62 ... 67


TV Tropes by TV Tropes Foundation, LLC is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License.
Permissions beyond the scope of this license may be available from thestaff@tvtropes.org.
Privacy Policy