This needs some serious reworking.: Token Loli

"Loli" is a similar sort of offensive as, like, a racial slur.

edited 15th Jan '12 10:33:09 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Holy Crap what happened while I was gone?

Okay, first:

I like Token Moe Child. As I pointed out earlier we don't need to get all hysterical and start banning people for the horrible sin of disagreeing about what to name something. Just give it a little time and we'd find something good.

Second:

What the crap are all you smoking? "Loli" is not an evil forbidden word. "Lolita" is an actual word in the dictionary. It means "a precociously seductive girl."

It's not an offensive word. It's something that exists in the real world and it's not some horrible crime to have a page talking about it, and using that title for it.

Good grief, the source, the book Lolitia by the way is pretty clearly a condemnation of Lolicon behavior.

Merely using the word "Loli" or even "Lolita" does not in anyway imply that person is a pedophile, or that they support pedophiles, or that they think being attracted to little girls is okay. Acting all offended like this about it is as stupid as being offended by anyone using the phrase "sexual abuse."

And "Loli" is a derivative of the word "Lolita" that can mean "a precociously seductive girl," but can also mean "an excessively cute little girl." "Excessively Moe" actually sums it up rather well. So Token Moe Child fits rather well.

Anyway that's my plea here. Stop acting like the mere use of the word "loli" is an offensive act. This is the only place I've heard that before. Every other forum I've been at reserves taking offense for when someone implies that they want to do inappropriate things to "lolis." That would make some sense. But getting all offended about the word?

I'm not saying that means there isn't reason to change it. Unfortunately "loli" can bring up some unsavory places on google that we don't want to be associated with. Advertisements for pages with "loli" in the title could result in things we'd rather not have around.

I'm fine with changing it. But stop with the implied sneers that simply because the concept of "loli" is often creepy that anyone favoring using the word in the title must be creepy too. That's not logical, and not conductive to a civil conversation.

WTH? No. It's not. Why do you even think that?

At most it's a "slur" in the sense that it implies a character is one dimensional and not well developed.

edited 15th Jan '12 10:35:42 PM by Sackett

You've been to other forums where this has come up. The objections are from points of view necessarily outside the fandom. The negative reaction is from people who don't know exactly what it means.

edited 15th Jan '12 10:38:41 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Well, since we have both Little Miss Badass and Miss Fan Service, how about Little Miss Fan Service? Actually, I think that sound even more crrepy than Token Loli, but at least it doesn't contain word "loli".

???

Who the heck outside the fandom even has a clue what "loli" means?

I'd guess that most people probably think it's short for "lollipop." That's what I thought the first time I heard it.

I remember I spent the longest time trying to figure out why people kept referring to certain characters as lollipops.

I guess if we want to split it... but I think Token Moe Child would probably be the best I've seen so far.

edited 15th Jan '12 10:39:26 PM by Sackett

I do. I am very familiar with the book Lolita, somewhat familiar with the two movies, and vaguely familiar with where the word "loli" comes from and that Japanese media has this tendency...

edited 15th Jan '12 10:41:27 PM by rodneyAnonymous

And rodney declares it is an offensive slur, as bad as the n-word.

Thus we must all bow to rodney's judgement?

edited 15th Jan '12 10:40:42 PM by Sackett

You must be joking. Similar "flavor", similar "string pulled"... I don't think I implied similar severity.

Perhaps you can explain exactly how and why "loli" is so offensive?

edited 15th Jan '12 10:43:45 PM by Sackett

There's like 180 posts all about that.

All of which come down to: "It's a creepy icky subject, thus any word that addresses that icky creepy subject is offensive and must never be used."

How is that sensible? That would mean that no one could ever discuss the subject. Which would actually be a bad thing I think. People being able to find a page that discusses these subjects is actually a good thing.

I mean, heck, I support changing the name. There are plenty of reasonable reasons to support a name change. I've listed a few of them.

However, saying "It's offensive" is not one of them. And it's designed to make the debate personal and shut down people who oppose you.

edited 15th Jan '12 10:52:16 PM by Sackett

I second renaming to Token Moe Child (Token Moe Kid may sound better).

Although I really, really don't understand why everyone freaks out at the L-word. Yes, I have read all of the topic.

Same thoughts.

edited 15th Jan '12 10:52:58 PM by OneMore

It reflects badly on the wiki for us to run around calling little girls lolis especially when a large number of them aren't sexualized. They're just portrayed as a cute and innocent Moe.

If you think it's about the subject, you don't understand. It's the word. The negative reactions are from people who don't know exactly what it's supposed to mean. If you're not an anime fan, it seems like it means something else. (And sort of does mean that, heh.)

Do you find the word "macaca" offensive? Lots of Africans do.

edited 15th Jan '12 11:08:28 PM by rodneyAnonymous

No, a bunch of the posts spelled out very clearly that the word is unsavory because it:

• emphasizes the character's titillating role, even when inapplicable
• normalizes sexualization of kids by treating it as something cute
• it explicitly derives from Lolicon, a Japanese portmanteau of Lolita Complex, which means "pedophilia"

So... they're offended by a word when they don't know the meaning of the word?

I'm going to bed.

I don't wish to derail, but I've never personally understood how moe, being so deeply fetishized, isn't meant to be erotic.

There are a lot of people with a fetish for it. That doesn't mean that everything that people find moe is meant to be erotic. People deeply fetishize shoes. That doesn't mean shoes are inherently erotic.

If you want to discuss moe, start a trope talk thread, or even a full TRS. Moe is hard to nail down, although everyone pretty much agrees on it when they see it. This really isn't the place to bring it up again.

edited 15th Jan '12 11:05:02 PM by Discar

I suppose because it being meant as wank material classifies it as a different trope.

I totally agree with you. I was being facetious.

We aren't even talking about the word loli anymore, I don't know why this keeps getting brought up, if I said the word Loli I was talking about the trope, not the word, because that's the only name it has at the moment.

And no one is justifying child sexualization.

edited 15th Jan '12 11:16:12 PM by NoirGrimoir