The OWS thread, part II

Lets hope their fears are well founded.

When will everyone realize that they are not afraid? If anything, thy're annoyed. Occupy is not some big scary force that threatens the privileged way of life.

A few days ago it occured to me that the Founding Fathers were in the "1%". Hmm.

Well, yeah. Considering they were among the class that could afford education and the like. That in itself doesn't have much bearing on those who are considered the %1 now, though.

As for the police; they're just trying to do their jobs. It's folks like the Wall Street big wigs and the politicians they support that are afraid, and even then it's not like many of them fear directly for their lives. They just fear that the rules might change to not be so much in their favor as a result of OWS and the like.

Revolutionaries and political malcontents are often members of the wealthy, educated, privileged demographics. Che Guevara didn't come from the barrio. In a lot of the language used to denigrate radical progressives ("those stupid left-wing college liberals, kids who don't understand the value of things"), I hear a lot of coded messages from the rich telling their kids "don't rock the boat".

Well if the Police and the stablishment werent afraid then they wouldnt over react.

The overreactions of police in action are the results of tense situations, which can lead to poor decision making. Now, the actual things that they can plan ahead for are often dictated by people who are higher on the totem pole than the average police officer. The police can't really just ignore the rules they enforce.

Not only that, but lingering British ways of thought dictated that those who weren't in the 1% were unvirtuous and couldn't be trusted with any sort of authority whatsoever. A good deal of our current representation process is designed specifically to shut the common man out of having a say in much of anything.

No, really. That's the entire point of how Hamilton wrote the damn thing.

EDIT: Hey look everyone, I forgot how to spell Madison! *facedesk* Thanks for the catch, Ultra.

edited 15th Mar '12 5:22:45 PM by Pykrete

Pop quiz: which founding father stated "The people who own the country ought to govern it."?

I think Madison was more significant than Hamilton was. And the main point of Madison's Constitution was separation of powers/checks and balances. Which was really revolutionary and pretty damn impressive for its time.

That is a fallacy. There is insufficient evidence to believe that they are overreacting from their point of view. For all we know they see this as the proper way to crush a riot. They are more likely annoyed then afraid.

@Prof: except that in many cases, Occupy protests were not riots. And their reactions cost the taxpayer a heap of money. Finally, AFAIK peaceful negotiation tactics were not even tried in most cities; the cops just went straight to the truncheons and pepper spray.

In my town, the city forcibly evicted 20 protesters encamped in a local park. After the city government told them they could be there, and the protesters bent over backwards to accommodate the city's requests. Despite no violence or lawbreaking of any kind (except illegal camping), the police department got suited up in riot gear anyway.

They had to borrow it from three other departments - all of whom laughed at them, but that's beside the point.

if that's not overreaction, I'm not sure what is.

It's some cop or politician saying "We want to get rid of these people, so let's go all the way and use riot gear to make sure they're evicted."

Or maybe they were playing it safe.

Or maybe it was careerism.

Who knows. There are many explanations. The "1%" quaking in their boots is among the least likely.

@Prof: I dunno, those kinds of crude tactics have historically been one of the signs of a regime in fear.

Or a sign of people being annoyed. Many people want Occupy to be over. A display of force shows who is in charge, showing people that the annoyance is being handled. Or so they may think.

If it was fear they were feeling, the National Guard would be there, not the police.

Prof, you're strawmanning. No one claimed they were "quaking in their boots", but the police in many cities, including NY, did over-react, and continue to over-react, mostly as an excuse for fear-mongering. They want to justify their over-blown para-military equipment budgets, so they make threats out to be more than they actually are. Hence peaceful occupations became "riots", ordinary law-abiding Muslims are prosecuted for lending "material aid" to terrorists, and "suspicious looking" hispanics are asked for their papers. In one sense you are right, the establishment are not themselves afraid, merely hungry for power, and willing to use fear to get it.

Then we agree. Mostly.

Bleh. You're right, I meant Madison, and I feel like a dolt for botching that. Hamilton's ideology was even more extreme.

edited 15th Mar '12 5:21:19 PM by Pykrete

Well. I think Hamilton was awfully important.

Thing is that the US is a liberal democracy. Normal liberal thought dictated that only people who had freedom to make decisions, i.e, those who where not employed (but those who employed people, who where their own bosses), should participate in the political process because they where the only ones smart enough and free enough to effecftively dictate the politics of a country.

edited 15th Mar '12 5:17:58 PM by Baff

I don't know Hamilton's ideology, apart from the fact that he was a radical Federalist (which is a good thing in my book). He was the guy who died in a duel, right?

Well I would argue that Hamilton was the most important founding father, in terms of how his ideology and ideas came to shape America, after George Washington and Thomas Jefferson.

But we have gone off topic. Someone should make a "founding fathers thread" I am sort of too lazy to do it right now.

edited 15th Mar '12 7:57:05 PM by Baff

Dozens of arrests at Zuccotti park as protesters gather together for the 6-month anniversary of the OWS protests.

Also, a report on the accomplishments of OWS.

occupy blog

As Occupy Arrestees Arraigned, Iris Scans Affect Bail