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If there were fewer gender stereotypes, would transsexuals still exist?:

 1 Kexruct, Thu, 22nd Dec '11 4:08:12 PM from Vvardenfell
nonarySpade
First off, I want to assure you that I have nothing against transsexuals, and I don't intend to discriminate against them.

Anyway.

The gender divide in modern society is bigger than ever, and the transsexual community is also larger than ever. Now, I recognize that corellation doesn't equal causation, and that several other factors may be at play, but is it possible that gender dysphoria is caused, for the most part, by societal expecations and stereotypes?
They call themselves seamstresses -Feet of Clay
 2 Ace of Spades, Thu, 22nd Dec '11 4:10:34 PM from The Wild Blue Yonder Relationship Status: I wanna know about these strangers like me
Uhm... actually, I'd say the gender divide is narrowing. Though given how strongly some people can identify with their gender, I doubt it will ever really disappear. And most likely yes, transsexuals would still exist.
 3 USAF713, Thu, 22nd Dec '11 4:14:49 PM from the United States
I changed accounts.
If there were less gender stereotypes, would transsexuals still exist?

Yes, because sex =/= gender. tongue

edited 22nd Dec '11 4:15:52 PM by USAF713

I am now known as Flyboy.
 4 Kexruct, Thu, 22nd Dec '11 4:17:24 PM from Vvardenfell
nonarySpade
Gender as a term for what you perceive yourself as was actually appropriated by transsexuals. That definition technically isn't what it means.

/nitpicking
They call themselves seamstresses -Feet of Clay
No, because it's got nothing to do with personality, and everything to do with feeling uncomfortable in one's own body.
"You fail to grasp the basic principles of mad science. Common sense would be cheating." - Narbonic
someone
[up]Yeah, like that. Transsexualism is not simply about how one feels about not fitting in with gender stereotypes, it's also that one feels their body is not one they should have.
something
 7 USAF713, Thu, 22nd Dec '11 4:41:31 PM from the United States
I changed accounts.
As far as I know, that's what it's been in psychology and sociology as long as we've been civilized enough to know that "what you have between your legs" isn't the end-all, be-all.

And, yes, more seriously, Katrika has it. There will be transsexuals so long as people don't like the biological hand dealt to them. AKA for as long as there are people.
I am now known as Flyboy.
 8 Kexruct, Thu, 22nd Dec '11 4:55:07 PM from Vvardenfell
nonarySpade
Well, I didn't mean that it would be completely eliminated.

And stereotypes is the wrong word.
They call themselves seamstresses -Feet of Clay
So, if I'm reading this correctly, OP seems to think transsexuals are individuals who consider changing their sex because other people felt they did not align to gender-stereotypes enough?

 10 Kexruct, Thu, 22nd Dec '11 4:57:10 PM from Vvardenfell
nonarySpade
Expectations might be a better word actually.

What I mean is that what people expect to see in males and females is so deeply ingrained in the public psyche that it is a contributing factor.
They call themselves seamstresses -Feet of Clay
 11 Ace of Spades, Thu, 22nd Dec '11 5:15:07 PM from The Wild Blue Yonder Relationship Status: I wanna know about these strangers like me
Gender is mostly a mental issue. Societal expectations interacting with the mental issue of "I am not the right biological sex" is what causes the problem, as gender dysphoria is not, as I consider it, in and of itself a mental disorder. It's just a feeling of "I am different". Changing societal expectations isn't going to change the fact that a small group of people are going to think at some point "wow, I don't think I have the right parts at all." Now, changing societal expectations can make it easier on this small group, and make it much more socially acceptable to feel that way, and make it easier to get the hormone therapy and operations. It's not going to change the underlying feelings.
 12 Octo, Thu, 22nd Dec '11 5:23:09 PM from Germany
Prince of Dorne
This issue is exactly my... hm, problem would be a too strong word... my issue? with transsexuality. I recognize of course everybody can cloth, style, behave etc. themselves like they want, and as a matter of basic politeness I'll adress everybody with the term they want.

However, I'm very much in favour not only of equality between the sexes/genders, but in fact in favour of social gender blindness. Male or female shouldn't matter at all in anything besides one's sexual preferences. I hate, I absolutely, utterly loathe it when people go "true men do" or "rediscovering femininity" or whatever crooked shit.

I am male no matter what I do. I reject notions of what "true men" should do. I'm male because I'm XY and because I have a penis.

However, then the obvious question is: If gender is not about that, and not about such stereotypes, either, about what is it then?
Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken.

Unrelated ME1 Fanfic
I'm male because I'm XY and because I have a penis.
This isn't true for everybody. This thread would not exist if it were.

 14 Ace of Spades, Thu, 22nd Dec '11 5:53:35 PM from The Wild Blue Yonder Relationship Status: I wanna know about these strangers like me
Hey now, some women feel there needs to be some "rediscovering of femininity" due to a lot of feminists discriminating against typically "feminine" behaviors and ideals, and extolling the virtue of acting masculine over that. There is a group of women who think if you behave in a feminine manner then you are somehow giving into "the patriarchy".

Also, the gender identity of the small group I previously mentioned pretty much defy the "I am male because I have the XY chromosome and have a penis". They feel a certain way in defiance of their biology; that's why they're transgendered.
 15 Drunk Girlfriend, Thu, 22nd Dec '11 5:57:59 PM from Castle Geekhaven
This is a relevant article talking about a child that realized from a young age that she didn't belong in a boy's body.

It can be argued that at that age, social expectations of "gender" don't have as much of an impact, yet she still realized that she was meant to be a girl.

edited 22nd Dec '11 5:59:03 PM by DrunkGirlfriend

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
 16 Kexruct, Thu, 22nd Dec '11 6:05:16 PM from Vvardenfell
nonarySpade
Actually, all the behaviors she displayed at a young age seemed to be behaviors determined as "feminine" by society.
They call themselves seamstresses -Feet of Clay
Raven Wilder
[up][up][up] What makes them think that human feelings have any relevance on what gender you are? Human beings are sacks of meat; all we are is our biology.

edited 22nd Dec '11 6:07:58 PM by RavenWilder

"It takes an idiot to do cool things, that's why it's cool" - Haruhara Haruko
Why so serious?
Social expectations of gender start in the womb.

Not that I'm necessarily saying that there can't be some biological element to being trans, but I'm not sure that's really a convincing argument for that always being the sole reason.

someone
I guess I understand the question posed by this thread. If nobody expects males to behave as masculine or females to behave as feminine, would people feel that their body should be of the opposite sex? Perhaps not, as stated earlier, transsexualism is bout not feeling comfortable with one's own body, and wishing that it was that of the opposite sex. Other things are secondary to that.
something
Never Ask Me the Odds
Interesting theory. Let's test it.

Are there any significant number of transexual tomboys and transexual girlie men out there?
She of Short Stature & Impeccable Logic

My Skating Liveblog
 21 USAF713, Thu, 22nd Dec '11 6:37:45 PM from the United States
I changed accounts.
@DG,

That was a good article.
I am now known as Flyboy.
[up][up] Lots of them.

Never Ask Me the Odds
[up] Thanks. If that's the case, well... doesn't look like not conforming to the stereotype of how their sex should act was what made them want to change their gender.
She of Short Stature & Impeccable Logic

My Skating Liveblog
 24 feotakahari, Thu, 22nd Dec '11 7:01:19 PM from Looking out at the city
Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer
I've decided to give up and accept that I will never understand people who care what bodies they're in. I don't define myself by body (as in, I think I'd be myself if I was a man, a woman, or an animal), but I'm not going to say that people who do are wrong in any way.
That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful
[up] I'm not sure you could even if you wanted to. Nor could I for that matter. How would you know what it felt like to not be in your body? Or to not have your sexual orientation? (as it applies there too) How would I?

Total posts: 64
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