Bah Humbug! Or have yourself an atheist holiday season

And the disgusting thing is that Christians are supposed to be all 'turn the other cheek' and 'love thy neighbor' and such. At least, that's what the Bible says. But anyway, it's okay for Christians to direct vitriol and malice toward atheists, but if we so much as say Happy Holidays during the season, we're now Godless heathens (a charge I don't deny, but bear with me) who are on the same level as the heinous scumbags of the planet.

Something just doesn't seem right here. Maybe Christians should take the time to read their religious text a bit more.

edited 18th Dec '11 9:02:32 PM by DarkConfidant

May I kindly ask that we keep the pointlessly rude potshots out of things? There is no reason for this statement to exist: "If they did, the might become atheists". All it does is serve as something to potentially rile someone up or bring in like minded angry folk who will further stoke flames with more such statements.

Again.

I ask.

Don't do it.

I will Buddhist your face off with calm talking.

Okay, fine. I deleted the offending line; I've no interest in spreading the napalm further.

With that said, the rest of my post stands. It's just plain unfair that there's a double standard employed between Christians and nonbelievers.

There certainly is a double standard. A not very nice one that at times leads to hurt feelings or physical violence from either side. Personally I don't think acting aggressively or defensively in such a fashion because it's unfair is an appropriate course of action though.

Sadly I'm not sure how to fix this on a wide scale. All I can do is work with the few small groups of people I know and get them to the wat I go to or the local UU church. Or just to talk with me and maybe my Catholic friends.

UU being Unitarian / Universalist, I presume?

Certainly, I have no problem if Christians and other believers want to use 'Merry Christmas', and have their Nativity scenes, and pay homage to what they believe to be their Lord/savior/etc. All I'm really interested in is being able to enjoy the end of the year in peace, say 'Happy Holidays' without being looked down upon or scorned, and to enjoy some holiday meals with family. And of course, opening a gift or two is nice as well.

Basically, I want to enjoy the Winter Solstice in what way suits me, as a nonbeliever, best.

Universalist Unitarian yes. Or was it the other way around? Oh well.

And I would love to be able to celebrate this time of year the way I wanted without everyone getting uppity about things like they do now as well. Sadly they seem to want to.

I'm not certain, nor do I think the semantics are that important here.

It's just that I don't see how atheists celebrating the Winter Solstice destroys the 'true meaning of Christmas' to any extent. If strawman Christian wants to blame something for 'ruining Christmas', wouldn't rampant consumerism and commercialism be the better target?

Sadly, I just don't see the logical thing happening on a mass scale...

I just do what I can on the small scale for now.

Sadly, that's the best than anyone can really ask for. Good luck with the whole 'changing the world, one small step at a time' thing. Maybe you'll leave this world a bit better than you found it.

After all, good will and holiday spirit is what everyone should be able to agree that the season is really about, other things aside.

Aondeug

May I kindly ask that we keep the pointlessly rude potshots out of things? There is no reason for this statement to exist: "If they did, the might become atheists". All it does is serve as something to potentially rile someone up or bring in like minded angry folk who will further stoke flames with more such statements.

While I agree with you, Aondeug, I'm not going to let that remark by Dark Confidant go. It ties into something else I'll be replying to in a second.

Sneering jabs like "If they'd just read their Bible they might convert to Atheism" betrays complete ignorance in the theology of any Christian denomination, not to mention any common sense on the subject—for example, if reading the Bible had a good chance of converting any Christian who read it into an Atheist, then there would be no religious Bible scholars, nor would there be any theologians or apologists (professions which typically have an intimate understanding of the Bible in the first place—and, in the case of the latter two, do some very serious debate on the merits and beliefs of their faith).

Certainly there have been cases where a person lost their faith by reading into the Bible, but the inverse has happened as well—so it's best to drop any sort of mindset that Christians just don't know what's in their book and that they'd join "the Atheist team" if they did.

Master Inferno

According to Christianity, everybody, Christians included, deserves to go to Hell, but that God provided a "get out of Hell free" card in Jesus. [...] Christians shouldn't be wishing Hell on anyone, but Christianity says that that's where atheists go, so a Christian saying that atheists go to Hell is, to them, a matter of fact, cause-and-effect thing, just like saying that if you drive north from the US, you'll get to Canada.

I agree wholeheartedly that Christians shouldn't be wishing Hell on anyone. On the rest of it, though, I don't think the various denominations and theological positions can be simplified that way; heck, I've heard of multiple theories on the nature of salvation—what exactly it did for God's relationship with man, who it applied to, and so on. For example, as far as I understand, Catholics believe Jesus' salvation was universal, and that you're not immediately doomed to go to Hell just because you're not Christian. Then there's the concept of universal reconciliation, which takes it farther and posits that no matter what, everyone will be forgiven of their sins, and it won't matter if they believed in God or not.

With that in mind, though, a Christian who sees Jesus merely as a "get-out-of-Hell free card" would be one of the "consolatory religion" types described here by Steven Dutch. Someone who thinks that all they have to do is sit in a pew every Sunday and they'll be saved, even if they go out and act horrible to everyone else the rest of the week.

edited 19th Dec '11 12:38:54 AM by TrevMUN

He's right. That "If Christians read the Bible" bromide is ridiculous. I had a gigantic post typed up about it, and why people need to not say it, but I'm pretty sure every point I made is covered in the post above me.

Strangely enough it's not that ridiculous. There was a study a while back, I believe done by the Pew foundation (who does most of these religious studies to be honest), that showed that religious knowledge among certain religious groups was pretty lacking. Indeed, the result is that actually reading the Bible tends to result in a more...focused perspective per se, with non-believers and fundamentalists scoring pretty much the highest, if I remember right.

This is why focusing on cultural tropes and memes and not modernist theology is NOT attacking a straw man. Not that if religious knowledge was high it would change things. It's really the cultural tropes and memes that matter. The fallacy is actually on the other side..it might be a variation of "No True Scotsman", but I don't think that's quite it.

Now, one could argue that the prevalent Christian culture is "doing it wrong'. And I'd support that (from an ethical point of view, although I'm not sure if that theology is more convincing to me to be honest), however then the next step is a really tough question, what can be done by modernist institutional leaders to change the culture so they're doing it right?

@DC: I find it ties into the idea that these types generally blame liberals and atheists for the rampant consumerism. Namely that we somehow did it on purpose to annoy christians.

My personal axe to grind with the whole thing is that for every friendly christian I know who keeps their faith a personal thing and never tries to proselytize and just enjoys telling people merry christmas or happy holidays as a measure of goodwill, I have 5 more acquaintances who spend their every waking moment trying to tie their every action in life back to jesus and then scream about it all over facebook while you try desperately to bite down the urge to call them out on it.

edited 19th Dec '11 9:59:40 AM by Midgetsnowman

I do fully agree with DC that the blatant double standard is ridiculous and even disgusting. Displays of intolerance and hate in the name of Christian should be given the same public treatment as ones in the name of atheism, and people in general need to grow up about the whole issue. =/

edited 19th Dec '11 1:30:52 PM by Katrika

@Baff "But then how can he argue his position if he beliefs god is not real."

.*sighs* When he gets blunt and confrontational about it. I don't mind discussion, but he would get really abrasive and somewhat rude.

I feel I should apologize for my comment last night. I make that comment because I grew up and live in the Bible-Belt, and I have to deal with a lot of backlash from people who don't accept my atheistic/agnostic beliefs, and I've developed some level of disgust for Christians-in-name-only, who claim to profess faith in Jesus and attend church, but are immoral jerks who don't follow any of the ideas of Christianity.

And I think that's the problem I have with these so-called religious folk that populate a great bit of this region - they preach a twisted version of the faith that emphasizes hate and vitriol toward those outside the faith, while ignoring all the peace and love and goodwill that seems to be the real essence of Christianity.

With that said, I do know a good number of good, honest Christians who actually do live out their life in accordance with Jesus's teachings, and I respect them. But there always seems to be a Fred Phelps out there to ruin it for them.

So, if I did offend anyone, I apologize.

Thank you. That's a level of understanding I wish we all had.

Now imagine how much those people disgust the rest of us. For you it's a slap in the face. For us it's a knife in the back.

edited 19th Dec '11 3:03:35 PM by Pykrete

So true. Especially the more rabid ones that attack anything that isn't not exactly what they believe.

theres worse ones. The church I belonged to as a child would wait till your back was turned and then gossip about you and how inferior you were to them.

Wow, that's really horrible. I guess I've been really blessed in my Church and Catholic high school.

That really sucks. Theres always some people who just want to feel better than others.*Sigh*

I dont know.

Everyone around me always seemed pretty reasonable as I was growing up. But later on... looking back... I realised some of my teachers and family members actually said and defended some pretty despicable stuff.

But everything seems normal (or strange) to a child anyways.

edited 19th Dec '11 8:13:33 PM by Baff

@Joesolo: thats smalltown midwest for you. Everyone knows everypone else. and Gossiping behind peoples backs is the number one activity. Theyre absolutely horrible people playing at being "the only moral people in america"

Its why I grew into an agnostic with such a burning hatred for all things rural. Because at least in my experience, half of the midwest it is a facade for horrible, petty people masking their self-hatred with pithy comments and superiority complexes.

edited 19th Dec '11 8:35:27 PM by Midgetsnowman

Thread Hop: Look, people have freedom of expression but please don't be pointlessly inflammatory. Nailing Santa to a cross and calling religious people ignorant doesn't muster support for your cause, it makes you look like a twat. The American Atheists Foundation needs to grow up.

It would be nice if people could be civil to each other for a change.

EDIT: Actually reading through the thread now.

Yes. Let's generalize. All groups are composed of fundamentally identical people! Christianity is collectively intolerant! All religious people are bigots and apparently also have a hivemind!

No unfortunate implications in that. HERP DA DERP.

edited 19th Dec '11 9:14:11 PM by Pentadragon

Oops. Sorry!

edited 19th Dec '11 9:13:51 PM by Pentadragon