Bah Humbug! Or have yourself an atheist holiday season

My being Buddhist as a mofo.

I still don't get it. If you don't believe in damnation, what's there to be offended at? Damnation is being condemned to Hell; since I don't believe in Hell, the whole thing is hardly an insult. I understand what Hell is, mind you, but I honestly don't see how a atheist could take offense to condemnation to what we so often deride as 'Bigfoot's tickle-jail".

edited 17th Dec '11 3:07:05 PM by DisasterGrind

For the same reason that "I'm going to stab you in the chest and laugh" is offensive: violent threats tend to upset people.

And make no mistake, telling someone they're going to hell is a violent threat.

edit: my word choise is grate

edited 17th Dec '11 6:44:12 PM by Wicked223

Anyone who truely believes there's a hell should not be able to casually wish it on someone. It just boggles my mind.

@Disaster

I don't believe in it sure... but that other people believe that I deserve eternal damnation and torment for not sharing their beliefs is what worries me.

There's another aspect too—the audacity of those people trying to condemn others to eternal damnation, as if they have the right to decide what happens to others when they die. From a Christian perspective, that's God's discretion.

I've actually gotten my share of that kind of heat too (pun not intended), though typically it was in a more euphemistic "I do not think you will be saved" sense. Either way, I find it disgusting.

I'm rather bothered by people wishing people Hell. I personally believe Hell to be a temporary thing (Buddhist remember?). Still there's that whole loving kindness and mercy thing. And the only reason you've made it where you are is because of other individuals who helped you in your lives. You once were where this person is now and even lower. We all were. It's an up hill climb and we only make it by holding hands. Sadly we're more inclined to push one another down.

This is getting off topic though.

edited 17th Dec '11 3:20:28 PM by Aondeug

I thought it was a convenient and rather obvious shorthand for all the disreputable behaviors of religious fundies to show how an atheist can be just as bad in pretty much every meaningful way. Really guys, we don't have to be pedantic about things like this.

RE: the crucified Santa, very good message that needed to be said, totally wrong way to present it. I can see the message that we've all but turned consumerism itself into a religion, but until someone actually came out and said it, that won't necessarily be the first meaning that comes to mind. "Your key religious figure is a silly fairy tale like Santa" can also be easily drawn from it, and given the American Atheists' antics, isn't even an entirely unlikely one somebody might jump to without being able to read the dude's mind.

Seriously, artists might want to invest in an explanatory plaque or something. Ambiguous meanings are cool sometimes, but this isn't one of them.

edited 17th Dec '11 3:33:54 PM by Pykrete

"There's another aspect too—the audacity of those people trying to condemn others to eternal damnation, as if they have the right to decide what happens to others when they die. From a Christian perspective, that's God's discretion. "

That's what I always think to myself whenever I hear someone tell someone else that they're going to Hell- and then I wonder if telling them that would net me a black eye.

Let me stop pretending to be a Badass Atheistcoat-dere for a second and ask you guys another question- how come we can't put up decorations for every holiday around winter time? Where I live- don't ask where- we do that. How come I never hear of multi-holiday decor in other areas?

...or maybe I've not been watching enough news?

edited 17th Dec '11 3:23:47 PM by DisasterGrind

I don't really give an ass about what decorations people use as long as they're not slinging mud. I've seen nativities and menorahs around here but not a whole lot else. Given the local demographics, it wouldn't really make much sense to be putting up expensive decorations for much else.

I'd just like to see people hold off on it until it's actually fucking December.

Speaking for myself, I actually think that real world tropes matter, believe it or not. I actually think that the way we as humans kind of survive and flourish is via pattern recognition. As such, here's how I see the subconscious logic. With emphasis on subconscious, of course.

Person X is going to hell for not believing in what I do Bad people go to hell Therefore, person X is a bad person.

That's why it bothers me, to be honest. It's basically someone saying I'm a bad person for no good reason whatsoever. I like to think that I'm a pretty nice person, myself. (Actually, I tend to be nice to a fault, but whatever), and no, I don't find the argument that we're all bad people particularly compelling. Because I don't find people usually act on that belief.

I think the whole Santa thing is stupid...I would never put up a display like that because it's stupid. It's visually offensive (which is different from being conceptually offensive*), however I find standard crucifixion imagery visually offensive as a whole, and I'd rather not see it.

edited 17th Dec '11 3:46:32 PM by Karmakin

"Why can't they just follow the golden rule- If you ain't got nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all.

But, that's not the golden rule. It's "Love your neighbor as you love yourself". (or "do unto other as you would unto yourself" or one of a myriad other forms of it) Holy shit, how does a Christian even get that one wrong?"

Thats the "Greatest commandment", theres no thus named "golden rule" for Christianity. The golden rule is just something that's just a general thing people made over the years.

I know, right? stores are putting up Christmas decorations weeks before Thanksgiving even. One holiday at a time people! Well, except for over laps, but give a buffer zone when there a month apart!

edited 17th Dec '11 3:55:25 PM by Joesolo

The problem here is that there should be absolutely no display of any type of doctrine regarding the existence or lack of existence of God by the Secular goverment.

I might be an Atheist but I am a Secular and a Liberal first and for most.

If the Townhall wants to get around this basic tenant of the Social Contract then Atheist Have every right to put up a display along the other religious ones that say "there's probably no god... now stop worrying", or that reads "Separation of Chruch State is one of the funding principals of the United States of America".

On a side note I am amazed this hasnt been locked yet.

The golden rule... If I am not mistaken... was articulated by Kant I think.

EDIT: Nevermind it appears I was mistaken.

Also whats so bad about the Flaying Spaghetti Monster??? If Townhall displays A fat men who travels around the world going down chimney giving gifts to every kid in the world... and endorses its existence... why cant it endorse the existence of FSM???

edited 17th Dec '11 5:06:34 PM by Baff

@Pykrete: even if they explained it, people wouldnt believe them. The photographer of Piss Christ has said the piece reflected what society has done to Christ. Most critics instead claim he's attacking christ by pissing on him maliciously regardless.

You cannot reason with overreactionary lunatics.

edited 17th Dec '11 5:16:22 PM by Midgetsnowman

Santa is an exaggeration of a historical figure (St. Nicholas of Myra) melded with various cultural traditions, not something that's been hijacked into an obnoxious straw man attack on religion.

So it's as ludicrous as the Atheists?

But if they want a display, you have to give it to them. If atheist can put up signs that are just there to attack religion, then they can make something that's at least funny.

edited 17th Dec '11 5:32:53 PM by Joesolo

Precisley. I think MSF is about the least offensive thing atheist can put up. I bet most normal people would giggle. It might even be seen as a criticism of the over saturation of figures such as that of santa in the Mass of Christ.

All do they could also put up a men made of straw and proclaim him the Santa of Pastafarianism.

But you still havent got the idea. If the Townhall takes down the public displays then you wont have to see FMS in City Square.

edited 17th Dec '11 5:44:16 PM by Baff

I kinda get a kick out of it. I know it's them trying to make us(all religions) look stupid, but it's too funny.

Actually, the point of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is to make fun of the theory of Intelligent Design.

Also if you're offended by a Flying Spaghetti Monster, well, I think that speaks volumes, I'm just not sure about what.

I'm well aware of what the FSM was originally intended to accomplish. Its purpose has changed ever since it grew popular.

I find the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster to be quite offensive. Don't tell me you've not seen how militant Atheists have gleefully used it to mock every aspect of organized religion (and Christianity in specific).

Things like Church of the Sub Genius and Discordianism (from the "elaborate joke" angle, but I've met people who practice it as a serious religion though) don't bother me, but the FSM was hijacked and engineered to be a straw man specifically.

edited 17th Dec '11 7:14:36 PM by TrevMUN

Um, no I honestly have not.

Now, I have seen it used to make fun of religious extremists and conspiracy theorists on a couple of forums I frequent (usually by quoting a ridiculous statement, and then just posting a picture of the FSM), but I can honestly say that if it's ever been used in that context, I've never come across it.

Well, I have. What I've seen went a lot farther and more involved than stuff like that, and it sickened me quite a bit.

Still. If we gave religious people a say in what do they conisder more offensive, a small plastic statue of FSM and a banner that says GOD DOES NOT EXIST, I bet the majority will choose the latter one.

Also they could put a stand advoacting Movementarism, since u dont seem to like FSM. But even that would ve more offensive from my perspective.

edited 17th Dec '11 7:23:33 PM by Baff

That's what I'm getting at though. When you present your artistic message in a way that people are (quite understandably) more likely to take away the exact opposite message than the one you're going for and have to personally explain it to set people straight, it's frankly shitty art and you had better ways of getting the point across.

edited 17th Dec '11 7:23:53 PM by Pykrete

Or is it, Genius???

Setting up a work of art so that a superficial appreciation takes away the exact opposite meaning is actually an effect which is quite sought after.

edited 17th Dec '11 8:07:27 PM by Baff