Turkish Army sends 10,000 soldiers into Northern Iraq to pursue Kurds

> Okay well according to that list, the last time they had an actual independent nation was something founded by Saladin around 700 years ago. The rest were vassals or principalities of larger empires, so those were not independent. But you can correct me if I'm wrong.

Independence and sovereignty is modern concept. a lot countries become vassals or tributary another nation without losing independence. some state acknowledge vassalage and pay tribute to more than another state. depending on strength of the ruler, vassalage could change every generation of ruler.

On Kurdistan case, a lot of Kurdish emirate is hereditary not receive appointed governor, some conduct their own diplomacy and war. and they usually changed between Sultan and Shah depending on circumstances.

> So yeah, I think that's weak justification for smashing 5 countries today to form Kurdistan.

Kurdistan might or might not succeed in future, beside they dont have to smash ALL 5 states. i am ambivalent on whether Kurds should be independent. i just didn't like argument "they didn't have their own state in the past" as justification. a lot of modern state born on various reasons dynastics (Afghanistan, Austria), geography (Switz,India) , politics (Taiwan,s Korea), etc. past state should not be a justification or hindrance on creating modern countries.

> Palestine isn't a separatist movement. I don't even agree with Israel's formation. But hey, it happened so I think the best solution is for the people there now to share the land. Apparently they don't want to do so and they want to split it into two states. Fine whatever. But mind you, I'm not backing any separatist movement or ethnic nationalism here. If I had a choice, I would not have had happen what happened.

Future Generations 200 years from now could also see Kurdistan "happened". there are no reasons why some date become important and creation of new countries must be banned.

> Kurds may decide what their feelings are but if they're going to attempt to violently create a state that's going to disrupt the lives of a hundred million people, and bother two of the world's most powerful militaries, then that's on them. I don't really see what moral right they have to form a state. Oppression does not equate automatically to "let's form our own country", so I'm not going to give a crap that PKK thinks Kurdistan should exist by bombing people in Turkey and Iran.

True, Oppression don't always mean new states. but oppression create separateness that sometime developed into nationalistic feeling. Switz nationalism born from oppression by their feudal lords. France nationalism born when various foreign army rampage france during hundred years war and wars of religion.

Again, i am ambivalent on whether Kurds should be independent. PKK bombing might or might not be good. i am simply stating that state and countries born because of various reasons. oppression might or might not be relevant on state-birth.

Yeaaaaah, Finland is pretty much the reason I commented against it without saying anything

I'm all for Greater Sweden ;)

Having a state in the past is weak justification for having one in the future. Having no fully independent state in the past makes for no justification for having one in the future. Someone used Tibet as an example, which right now I kinda forget who, but that was actually fully independent before around 700 years ago with a full fledged empire and theocracy. When it comes to the Kurds, they aren't forming anything that existed before, but are rather creating a new state out of pan-ethnic nationalism of uniting the different Kurdish tribes under one nation. I don't agree with that justification.

I feel that new states are born out of compounded mistakes, not for any good reason for them to form. If the government under which the separatists are attempting to separate from were to become better then that is the solution I would strive for because when you go for independence, the government you have just left has not been fixed. The problems still exist. So either this leads to war or they just go back to being subjugated again.

The Kurds today are basically what the Armenians were in the late 1800's, victims of Turkey's intolerance for anyone who isn't Turkish. I'm hoping things end better for the Kurds than they did for the Armenians.

Culture trumps government: I hope the Kurds win.

People deserve to break free from governments that oppress them, and that quite plainly includes the Kurds. States are not entitled to continuity or territorial integrity: Self-determination trumps that.

I don't see a single reason to cut governments any slack whatsoever on their dealings with the population: If people get fed with the government's bullshit and want to kick the gov's pigs and thugs out of their territory, they're fully within their rights to do it.

edited 30th Nov '11 12:30:56 AM by SavageHeathen

They can try; doesn't mean the government is going to let them.

Firmly on the side of the jack-booted thugs, are ya?

If the government doesn't let'em, they should get all the outside support they can possibly get until they do get away with it. Government shouldn't have a say over whether they keep ruling over an oppressed group: By oppressing that group (or anyone ever), they forfeit any claim to legitimacy they might have had.

edited 30th Nov '11 1:21:26 AM by SavageHeathen

Haha, no. I'm on nobody's side, actually; I don't expect the Kurds to simply submit, but I would lose all respect for a government that didn't want to keep itself together by any means necessary.

If that outside support is the only thing keeping their state from being re-absorbed, they will simply be trading one master for another.

They certainly do have a say, as long as they can enforce their legitimacy; you only forfeit your claim to power once you actually lose said power. Someone could say that the American government was an illegitimate oppressor, but unless that person mustered up the necessary resources to overthrow the current system, their personal feelings would mean exactly squat.