It ebbs and flows. We're nearing the valley right now. It'll go back up again, and every peak is a bit higher than the preceding one.
I mean, we're not all street urchins and coal miners and people getting chopped to bits in factories and whatnot. Only some of us are.
I changed accounts.
Oho, so an 1/7th of the planet, give or take, isn't in abject poverty. What an achievement!
I am now known as Flyboy.
No one's calling it an achievement. We are making statements of objective fact.
You keep implying that this fact is not indeed the case.
edited 1st Oct '11 4:53:43 PM by TheyCallMeTomu
I changed accounts.
It is not, in a practical manner.
Physical violence has gone down. Fine. Aggression and human immorality has not. It's merely taken on a different form.
I am now known as Flyboy.
I don't think that's true though. It's not like the Captains of Industry of the late 1800s didn't ALSO trample the rights of the common man.
We've slid downhill since the 50s (though we've compensated with civil rights movements etc) but over the greater scale of things, I don't think we're particularly worse off than we were 100ish years ago.
Hm. I'd say we've slid downhill since the 90s; the 50s-80s were just America trying to deal with its status as a superpower opposed to the Soviet Union; the 90s were a nice lull between the Cold War and the War On Terror.
edited 1st Oct '11 5:06:26 PM by tropetown
I changed accounts.
The Captains of Industry grew up in what was, on its face, a more principled society...
...and they lacked all the myriad ways we have today to invade people's lives...
I am now known as Flyboy.
That "more principled society" part? Can I get some kind of citation for that?
THAT'S why I think you have a romanticized version of the past. That's not sustainable.
Fifteen tons, much?
edited 1st Oct '11 5:51:20 PM by TheyCallMeTomu
I changed accounts.
..."on its face"...
I am now known as Flyboy.
Right, making the statement by and large irrelevant to the topic of discussion.
I changed accounts.
Not really. People tend to try and conform to the standards of society, by and large. Back then, they had different standards than we do today, by virtue of McDonaldization and technological advance and whatnot.
I am now known as Flyboy.
It's very difficult to argue with you when you're not really making specific definitive statements.
What, specifically, was not the case 120 years ago that is the case now, that is a decided decline?
I changed accounts.
I already said, technology. For all its benefits, it makes our lives worse as well...
I am now known as Flyboy.
Specifics.
I changed accounts.
Communications technology is the worst offender. Of course, I keep repeating myself and you keep ignoring it or asking me to repeat myself...
I am now known as Flyboy.
It's not an argument. What is it that communications technology is doing that was not done 120 years ago. The reason I'm asking this, is because once we have a specific point, I will show you "No, look at this-this was just as bad. It's just a larger scale-the actual quality is not sufficiently different." But you have been resistant to actually point to something specific, and instead talk in broad sweeping generalizations about how "Badguys use technology for bad things."
Communications technology is "bad." The question then is, "how so."
I changed accounts.
Monitoring. Every site you go to is looked at by Google, not to mention all the other people who tag you as you go. Between the government and myriad businesses, complete profiles of everything you do are out there all over the place—being bought and sold for the benefit of organizations.
And there's not a damn thing you can do about it.
I am now known as Flyboy.
Oh, yeah, that's a pain.
But is that really any worse than not being able to communicate at all?
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For now? No. But what is the price for interconnectivity?
In the past, some people went down, and the world couldn't care less. Today, somebody goes down, and it falls like a domino...
I am now known as Flyboy.
No man has ever been an island, dude.
In any event, it's kind of a weak argument that we have more "metaphorical" violence now than we did 120 years ago "because of communication!"
I changed accounts.
It's not just because of communication, and it's not "metaphorical," it's non-physical.
I am now known as Flyboy.
It's still an exceedingly weak argument. You're not defining it in any coherent fashion, so it's impossible to really argue about.
I changed accounts.
~sigh~
Society and technology have rendered primitive "physical violence for gain" systems of goods exchange utterly obsolete. Why kill someone for food when you can go down the street and buy some from a grocery store or a fast food joint?
So instead, people do other things to fuck each other over. Stealing. Cheating. Oppression. What need do leaders have for armies when they have sheeple who don't care one way or another what freedoms are legislated away and what suppressions replace them?
I am now known as Flyboy.
I highly doubt technology makes people into sheeple.
Also, do you dislike medical advances, too? How about all the people who live fufilling lives these days that wouldn't have lived over the age of 5 120 years ago?
"You fail to grasp the basic principles of mad science. Common sense would be cheating." - Narbonic
Funny thing about the Great Depression... a little something happened after that.
Look, I don't think that the world is in worse shape than it's ever been (in fact, I think we're better off than we've ever been, unless you count the 90s), but I definitely don't think that means we're always going to be in good shape.
edited 1st Oct '11 4:31:28 PM by tropetown