Marvel Cinematic Universe

Tobias has an...interesting read on the character.

I cannot possibly imagine any scenario in which I would continue watching a show where I disliked the main character as much as you dislike Danny.

Like, it just wouldn't be a thing I would/could do.

At this point, you just seem to be watching something you know you don't like to complain about how much you don't like it to everybody else.

There's a great bit in Seinfeld (which is kinda redundant) where Elaine is in her office smelling a pen. The internal monologue is "This pen smells really bad....so why do I keep smelling it?"

Just put the pen down, dude.

Like, imagine it wasn't Danny but just some guy going, "Hey, I know you have financial troubles. I keep asking you to do me favors and you keep saying no, so I bought your building. You do this favor for me, maybe you can forget about the rent this month."

Do you know what that sounds like? That sounds like a mob boss.

I was always creeped out by Danny's behavior towards Colleen but I think Tobias finally articulated it (very strongly) for me. I feel like a lot of the defense towards Danny leans way too heavily in trying to make up for his flaws by excusing it with his stupidity or his ignorance, when even for somebody who we're supposed to see as being stupid, he's downright creepy in his mannerisms towards Colleen.

I remembered seeing the episode where they finally had sex and feeling furious at it for whatever reason, and now I finally think I know why thanks to Tobias's analysis: Danny's a fucking creep and a stalker.

I agree that he comes off as creepy, but intent has to count for something— but then again, so does context. He stops short of being malicious, but you can't get away with this kind of behaviour in 2017, and the show would really benefit from somebody telling Danny this, so that we're aware that the show knows it. Except I'm not convinced the show (specifically Scott Buck) *does* know it. The way it's written, it seems like we're only meant to see this as a big, romantic gesture, without seeing how demeaning it can be for someone to swoop in and solve all your problems for you like it's nothing, and then expect you to date them, like you now owe them for something you never even asked for.

edited 21st Sep '17 7:56:12 PM by Unsung

I've said this before and I'll say it again: Marvel only hired Scott Buck because he could shit out a show on the cheap and on the quick, quality be damned. The man is an idiot who happens to be able to make shit on time and on budget.

Yeah, the way the later seasons of Dexter seemed to expect the audience to be unambiguously sympathetic toward the character and his girlfriend the serial poisoner felt odd enough at the time, but now it feels like the man simply has no sense of irony or self-awareness.

Given the early reviews of Inhumans criticizing how unsympathetic the Inhumans are, I'm dreading what he's gonna do there.

The Protagonist-Centered Morality is strong with this one?

To an extreme degree if the early reviews are to be believed.

Danny's relationship with Colleen is written a lot like how romances were written in actions movies and comedies in the 80's, where "continue to be pushy and insinuating, always assuming her eventual compliance, and your love interest will eventually stop pretending she doesn't love you, forgive you for everything, and you'll live happily ever after" was a staple of romantic arcs.

This was everywhere in the 70's and 80's (it's why, for example, Han Solo and Princess Leia's romance is actually rather cringeworthy from a modern perspective - not as horrible as Anakin and Padme's, mind...) and you can occasionally still see it in series and movies nowadays that have a lot of 80's sensibilities, in account of a lot of directors and writers nowadays being 80's kids.

He writers probably saw him as a Dogged Nice Guy without it ever occcuring to him how many of his actions could be construed, because, well, that tends to be Hollywood's definition of a Dogged Nice Guy.

On he other hand, it could be intentional - just without them realizing the full scope. Forcing his way onto people because of an idealized notion of what he thinks their relationship should be is legitimately a character flaw of Danny's, it continues to be in Defenders, and it's arguably the cause of every poor relationship and interpersonal problem he has. He expects commiseration with everybody.

edited 21st Sep '17 8:43:19 PM by KnownUnknown

I haven't seen Iron Fist yet, but that's more or less what I would have assumed based on what Tobias wrote.

I'd recommend seeing it anyway just to form your own opinions. I love the guy, but Tobias does Accentuate the Negative like I eat meatball subs.

...That's not a trope?

Ah, thank you.

edited 21st Sep '17 9:10:49 PM by SonOfSharknado

Accentuate the Negative is a trope, but you put an "s" at the end.

Wait, what was wrong with Anakin and Padme's relationship?

That's for another thread.

I will say this - in comparison to those examples, its easier to believe that Danny doesn't have any intentional romantic overtones for insinuating his way into her life and is just obliivous to the way his actions look (at least, not at this point, and Tobias is right that no matter what his actual feelings are, the way those actions do look justifies negative response). At this point, he sees her as an "ally" in his fight, and the big problem is that's just the way he treats people he believes should be important in his life.

Danny has a thing where he designates people (often people he's only just met) as allies or family or what have you, and then once he gets that into his head out comes the "we're connected by a bond of honor or something; here's what you should be thinking about that; here's what you should be doing in regards to that; here's what I'm going to do for you to ensure that you get on board with that; why are you fighting this its meant to be; etc." He's very self-righteous and unshakeable in his idea that other people should line up to his idealistic niches for them. One of the ways Defenders improves him is by having other people actually start reacting realistically to this.

But here it's why he connects so well with Harold, because Harold got with the program so well and is nothing but his definition of dependable.

(Don't read, Tobias) In fact, it's my favorite thing about Harold as a villain - that he cottons on to Danny's flaws right away and realizes that instead of being forbidding like Ward, he needs to start reacting to things in the way Danny wants people to react, assuaging Danny's idealized perception of reality.

edited 21st Sep '17 9:10:32 PM by KnownUnknown

Defenders is definitely more aware of Danny's flaws. His conversation with Luke about white privilege isn't perfect, but it's better than anything in Iron Fist. Danny's relationship with Colleen is also better in Defenders, though it doesn't really get much direct focus.

I kind of feel like this show should be renamed Inside The Mind of a Nice Guy. Because a lot of Danny's actions -and the explanations for them- seem like classic Nice Guy behavior.

I agree that Danny's central character flaw is deciding for himself what his relationship with other people is. He decided that Colleen is his close friend and ally and he ignores her subtle hints otherwise. He's also a spoiled rich kid with no idea of context, so a huge candlelit meal is his idea of a casual lunch meeting between friends.

He's not intending to come across as creepy, he's just a nice guy who does nice things for his friends and expects them to do nice things for him because they're his friends. Danny is not a smart dude, he's a very simple and dense person. He has the social skills and intellectual depth of an 11 year old.

edited 21st Sep '17 10:16:23 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

Perhaps he grew with a mindset of "Treat them as how you want them to treat you" ?

I think another part of the problem some viewers have is not understanding that Colleen has her own reasons for putting up with Danny.

And, yes, they go beyond "white man so handsome and good at kung fu."

http://www.screengeek.net/2017/09/21/abc-clarifies-inhumans-cancellation-rumors/

It looks like this will keep on going...but we maybe should still give the Inhumans a chance if further episodes improve.

edited 21st Sep '17 10:59:17 PM by Luigisan98

Doesn't matter if that's not his intent, he's still a huge creep. Honestly, him being ignorant of it makes him worse if anything because he's not being outwardly malicious about it, he's just that stupid to think that him being a damned creep towards Colleen is acceptable behavior.

Such as?

Dude, at least provide a little more of a description than that, it's against forum rules to just drop links with barely any info or description to them.

edited 21st Sep '17 10:59:23 PM by AdricDePsycho

What is dead may never die.