Marvel Cinematic Universe

Ironman's getting his ass kicked by a man who killed his parents....and then someone who he thought was his friend joins in the beatdown. That's messed up .

Oh damn, was the Winter Soldier really responsible for Howard and Maria Stark's deaths? 'Cause then the plot actually makes like a million times more sense. Since Bucky seems to be the spark that properly instigates Civil War, Tony actually has every reason in the world to be on the side that sees him apprehended.

So somehow his flight system (useful for creating distance between you and your opponent) is disabled, and FRIDAY cant lock on those two fuckers with the armor's nonlethal antipersonell mini-missles. Would love to see the serendipitous circumstances that led to this.

HYDRA was behind it, but it's not 100 percent confirmed yet that it was Bucky specifically who arranged the "accident".

edited 25th Nov '15 11:03:34 AM by nervmeister

Bucky is probably (or at least very possibly) responsible for his parents' deaths, yeah. At the very least, the people who held his leash were, which would be enough for Tony to associate him with it.

Zola never elaborates about how he had Howard killed, which is kind of a blank check for the writers to make it that way if they want to.

edited 25th Nov '15 11:04:13 AM by KnownUnknown

We'll see. If that's the main question, I am firmly on Cap's side, though. Bucky never was a villain, he is a Po W who was mistreated for decades. He deserves to be able to come home.

Yeah, but Bucky's also being framed. It's not so much that nobody wants to forget his record as much as he's now also being used as a scapegoat for some other conspiracy, so now even people who would have been willing to put his past in the past before want his head.

edited 25th Nov '15 11:06:07 AM by KnownUnknown

Wonder if MCU Baron Zemo will be more Bucky's nemesis than Cap's.

edited 25th Nov '15 11:07:14 AM by nervmeister

Plus, I could easily understand someone arguing, "We're going to just not even investigate the massive number of crimes committed by Barnes, just to make absolutely sure he didn't do them willingly and won't do it again, on the word of ONE GUY? Even if it's Cap?"

He still deserves a fair trial, not getting shot on sight.

He deserves to be arrested, to stand trial for the crimes of the Winter Soldier, to be exonerated due to evidence and testimony proving that he was not in control of himself during that time and was instead being brainwashed and controlled by enemies of the state, then allowed to come home cleared of all charges and make a new life for himself.

True, and we'll probably got a clearer picture from the film itself, but it looks like Bucky's resistant even to that—he doesn't trust the government enough to turn himself in for a trial. Which is understandable, but doesn't really help his side, especially for Tony and the others who don't know him personally.

edited 25th Nov '15 11:12:53 AM by Renewal

If it's not Iron Man coming after him it's other agents, maybe even other heroes, or villains the government has on a leash.

Bucky's not gonna be a free man just because they beat up Tony Stark.

Tony has fought the majority of the Avengers now. Hulk, black widow, Thor, Cap, War Machine.

He's only missing Hawkeye, Wanda, Vision and Falcon.

How would you prove in a court of law that he was being brainwashed?

Well, there's Hawkeye, Selvig, and Dr. Cho's testimony that brainwashing actually exists, and the Avengers' testimony that Hydra was in possession of that scepter of brainwashing, for one.

Three witnesses, one of whom is considered a lunatic in the public eye, and an object that has since been destroyed doesn't really make for factual proof toward the existence of mind control, though.

Especially since their brainwashing wasn't from the same source as whatever the hell they did to Bucky.

edited 25th Nov '15 12:03:33 PM by Anomalocaris20

The details of the Winter Soldier's existence, which may include scans of the original schematics and notes Zola's seen hightailing with in First Avenger as well as later notes about the procedure they use in the second movie to keep him under/controlled and such, should have been in HYDRA's files - which got released to the public.

Plus, depending on how much they're willing to take into account AOS, all the reports of HYDRA's still-ongoing brainwashing techniques witnessed by Coulson's group.

edited 25th Nov '15 12:09:20 PM by KnownUnknown

Bucky was being brainwashed with S.H.I.E.L.D. assets. The government's already seized those assets. The equipment used to brainwash Bucky is sitting in a government facility somewhere.

The people trying Bucky would be able to verify that as well because Bucky would not be tried in a civilian court. He's a U.S. soldier. He's going to court-martial.

Also that. It really shouldn't be very difficult to prove that Bucky was not in control of his actions.

edited 25th Nov '15 12:09:24 PM by TobiasDrake

It's not like there's no record of the scepter anywhere. SHIELD must've photographed it. Tony Stark had scans of it in his lab. Every Avenger is on record as having seen it. And the fact that neither Hawkeye nor Selvig nor Cho were arrested for killing various SHIELD agents and aiding villains in their invasions tells me that their testimonies were viewed as truthful.

edited 25th Nov '15 12:09:42 PM by Tuckerscreator

Well, if you want to bring Netflix into this, Kilgrave's powers are likely to be accepted as fact going by the way Jessica Jones ends.

Still, it's a matter of proving that Bucky was indeed brainwashed.

Man, wouldn't it be great if elsewhere in the MCU legal precedent was being set up to protect victims of mind-control?

*cough* *cough*

edited 25th Nov '15 12:11:04 PM by Wackd

Also of note: the United States legal system operates on a principle of "Innocent until Proven Guilty."

It is not necessary to prove beyond all possibility that Bucky absolutely 100% must have been brainwashed during each and every one of his crimes. It is only necessary to introduce the reasonable doubt that he could have been.

edited 25th Nov '15 12:13:29 PM by TobiasDrake

I don't even think that you'd really need evidence of science fiction/fantasy style mind control in Bucky's case, because Winter Soldier showed plenty of evidence of good old fashioned mental and physical torture.

It's not a new thing to have a legal defense of duress.

I think the hardest thing to believe might be the idea of being periodically thawed out and refrozen but Steve could testify to that being possible/ID Bucky.

I don't think that part would be too hard to prove that he was kept in cryogenic stasis for long periods of time. Bucky doesn't look 80, so any scenario that would require him to be visibly octogenarian can be promptly excluded from consideration.

If he wasn't frozen, then why is he still so young?

edited 25th Nov '15 12:15:28 PM by TobiasDrake