Raven Wilder
Yes, I feel the same way, but Ace of Spades and some other people feel there needs to be recompense done for the earlier mistreatment of aboriginal people, and I was just pointing out that, from that perspective, the reservation system seems like something that needs to go.
"It takes an idiot to do cool things, that's why it's cool" - Haruhara Haruko
Yes, which is my solution. The reservations were essentially "screw you" concentration camps in an attempt to isolate away the natives. Ironically, a lot of Canadians believe that the isolationism is because of the natives and not the Canadian government.
Also, just to note, forcible child kidnapping and forced assimilation only stopped in the 1990s here, so it's not like some "long ago event", it's right freaking now. For Australia, I noticed they dumped the military on the aboriginals. I'm going to go ahead and say, that's probably a bad solution but I'm not going to say more than that because I don't know the situation well enough there.
So if you turn the reserves into territory/provincial status, then essentially, they are at the same level as everyone else and they have their autonomy to solve problems on their own. Tax income can then be directed to build their communities up and their local prosperity goes into local tax coffers, while the Federal government is legally required to give them money under the equalisation program to ensure they have the same level of social services as any other Canadian. There won't be any dispute about paying taxes because they'll have their own government; their own taxes, their own representation.
scratching at .8, just hopin'
Night Clerk of the Apacalypse.
Radical: Could you do me a huge favour and copy and past the relevant information. Currently stuck behind a filter wall.
edited 12th Dec '12 6:40:42 PM by TuefelHundenIV
Who watches the watchmen?
scratching at .8, just hopin'
Well, I'll post straight from the Aboriginal Peoples Television Network page
then:
It was retweeted by seven people.
It was that tweet that started it all.
And it shows no signs of letting up.
Idle No More became more than just a phrase or name; it’s an all encompassing feeling of First Nation frustration that has taken on a life of its own on social media websites. And it was the name of a country-wide day of action in various cities Monday that saw thousands take part in demonstrations to voice their displeasure with the federal government over legislation they say aims to rob them of their identity, land and self-worth.
[...]
The Idle No More name was thought of by four women from Saskatchewan, including Sylvia Mc Adam. The women wanted to do something about federal government’s legislation like Bill-C-45 that First Nations people say will take away control of Aboriginal land.
They organized three different teach-ins to educate First Nation peoples on the issues and announced it on Facebook.
Kappo knew Mc Adam and wanted to help. She started her own Facebook event on Dec. 2.
She tweeted it and it was the spark of the grassroots movement.
Then, when several chiefs attempted to push their way into House of Commons on December 4th, social media websites followed their every move. Idle No More was how they communicated on Twitter. By searching the hashtag it lists each tweet in a column making it easy to track.
Consequences?
Spence was supposed to begin her hunger strike in Ottawa Monday morning but weather delayed her flight into the city from Toronto. Spence arrived in the city at about 11 a.m. and she planned to hold a press conference later in the day. She was also scheduled to have a conference call with former AFN candidate Pam Palmater and members from the Idle No More campaign, which also kicked off Monday.
Spence plans to begin her hunger strike on Tuesday morning.
Spence said in an open-letter she wouldn’t end her hunger strike until Harper and Queen Elizabeth II or one of her representatives agreed to the treaty meeting.
“I will return to my traditional territory after such a meeting is held, or return to spend time with my ancestors in the traditional lands of my people,” said Spence, in an open letter released early Monday morning.
In the open letter, Spence said she decided to go on a hunger strike after “months” of consideration and meetings with elders.
“After a long period of reflection, the time is at hand for a clear statement,” said Spence.
Spence said the Canadian government was trying to “isolate” and “assimilate” First Nations people.
“This process of marginalizing our political leadership, along with the enforced segregation of our people is part of a deliberate (attempt) to isolate our people, marginalize our people and ultimately assimilate our people so that our rich heritage can be wiped out and the great bounty contained in our traditional lands be made available for exploitation by large multi-national companies,” said Spence.
Spence plans to spend her days during the hunger strike on Parliament Hill and her evenings on nearby Victoria Island where she will sleep inside a cabin there.
The Attawapiskat chief will be meeting with Assembly of First Nations officials before beginning her hunger strike. The AFN is helping her with her protest, said Danny Metatawbin, from Attawapiskat. An AFN spokeswoman said Spence’s hunger strike was “a personal initiative.”
Spence’s community of Attawapiskat burst onto the national consciousness last fall after images of the community’s deplorable housing flashed across the country’s television screens.
The Harper government, however, attacked the community, blaming the band for its housing situation. Aboriginal Affairs Minister John Duncan took away the band’s control over its finances and imposed a third-party manager.
Night Clerk of the Apacalypse.
Wow. That just sounds a bit sinister trying to steal the lands out from under them. Why are they after the land?
Who watches the watchmen?
For the same reasons you would want any land: ressources. Without talking about key territory, depending on the tribes and location, you might have a clan blocking access to a mine far north or else.
I have a question about your solution Bread: how big would be the hypothetical provinces? I don't think having like 100 (exagerated figure) new provinces is a good thing.
I'm all for improving the conditions of the indians/aboriginals, they are people just like us. But I also value an unified Canada.
Isn't this sort of why you guys now have Nunavut as a province?
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Uhm, I don't see how this would disunite you, since the idea seems to be to give the aboriginals equal representation through this plan. Hell, we have the same problem down here with representation of natives, and I think everyone's better served when they have a way to be heard on equal ground with everyone else. That way lies more unity, not less.
scratching at .8, just hopin'
Yeah, there's no recipe for disunity better than convincing a large group of people that they won't ever get a fair shake under the current system.
Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
And, sometimes, a little disunity is required to gain rights that should be yours, yet which you are being denied. <sighs>
Night Clerk of the Apacalypse.
The question I would ask is how these nations might form.
They would more likely be micro nations inside of a larger country depending on the size of the land. A group of united tribes living on larger piece of land under a native union would be better.
Who watches the watchmen?
@ Disunity: Look at the US, states are all pretty hard to get together. Anyway, that's my thought process on the subject. I don't know at all what would happen with indian provinces.
Get together in exactly what way? We're not on the verge of another civil war, Question. And the disagreements that occur are the same that would occur in any diverse population with varying needs. I don't see how Canada's that much different in that regard. Or how that sort of thing prevents either country from being united in a meaningful way.
Meanwhile, preventing citizens from having a say in their representation, or being represented at all, creates disunity. And things like the civil rights movement.
scratching at .8, just hopin'
The nature of Canada's governmental divisions of power makes provinces extremely powerful. Toronto is the largest and wealthiest city in the country, and there's a good argument for it seceding from Ontario given how much money and control the province takes from it and does not return. The First Nations would be far more powerful as provinces.
Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
I dont want aboriginals to not be represented Ace, I hope you didn't understand that from what I said.
And no, it's not a civil war, but sedition is an awfully recurring subject. Both in Canada and in the US (taken more or less seriously).
I just think that having the aboriginals forming a province is one idea, but there are other options, like the provinces in place actually treating them like people.
Visiting from the Hoag Galaxy
This reminds me of a book I read called Keeper n' Me. I think it was written by a Canadian native. It was strange to read because it went on about the conditions on the reserves and none of the characters really seemed to care, even though the book, apparently unintentionally, made the conditions look awful.
One thing that is an issue with the First Nations is the combination of the welfare mentality and the really finicky rules of the citizenship laws.
Not Three Laws compliant.
How is redrawing a provincial boundary the first step to secession? South Africa redrew the Provincial boundaries without flying to pieces (I still haven't learned all of them... 
). Britain regularly redraws County lines, particularly in answer to changing population dynamics and local politics (Yay! East Riding! Back when it should never have left in the first place! And, then there's Rutland: it gets absorbed, it comes back... *boom* vanishes again... and back... It's a cycle.).
Switzerland also regularly redraws Cantonal borders to reflect both historical claims and changing demographics (and, also, when such a change is voted in via the form of direct democracy it uses).
It's not rocket science. <confused>
edited 13th Dec '12 5:28:29 PM by Euodiachloris
It's not just re-drawing, it's also creating a new province.
This is without mentionning projects like the Plan Nord. I don't know where the hypothetical province would be, but if it's in the north of Quebec, the new province and Quebec will have a run in because of the developpements going on there.
Although I'm not sure anymore if the Plan Nord is still a thing. I do know that we have hydroelectric dams back north.
What other options would you suggest?
And I wouldn't take talk of sedition seriously. Especially not in the United States, because we are all too dependent on each other and the federal government to plausibly split. Anyone saying anything is either a blowhard or has a completely unrealistic idea of reality.
My average-joe idea?
I'm no expert on the indians' problems but my ideas would be:
- Educate the indians, give them more schools and universities
- Give them more presence in the governement, let them state their needs
- Educating the rest of the population about the indians
The last point is pretty important to me: the indians are people like us, we should all be outraged by their mis-treatment.
Again, I'm no expert, but that would be a start to me.
When I said South Africa redrew the map, I weren't kidding. Compare: South African Union Boundaries (3 Provinces)
; Apartheid South Africa and its Provincial and Homeland (hahahaha: yeah, right) Boundaries (4 Provinces... and a lot of heartache)
◊; Rainbow Nation (9 Provinces). Spot the additional provinces and the loss of the pointless.
You were saying?
And, Switzerland has split Cantons such as Jura and Basel down the middle, I'll have you know, to create two Half-Cantons from the old "full" one... that are their own entities in reality, now. Take a look at Half-Cantons. Not to mention split Vaud from both Bern and Fribourg properly when it got antsy by handing a heap of old territory back from both of the old land-grabbers (old historical, very intense grudges, those).
I didn't pick those examples out a hat at random.
edited 13th Dec '12 7:30:15 PM by Euodiachloris
"Educate the Indians" sounds vaguely insulting in this context, as the reason many of them are fighting for their rights is because they've educated themselves, and turning their homes into provinces gives them the second. Turning them into provinces probably would also help with the first, as well. The third requires a deep seated change to the way that textbooks are written; the establishment is afraid of writing things that makes them look bad for several reasons. It's also a separate but interrelated issue.
It's not anymore insulting than saying that the rest of the population needs education. There's still work to be done with indians.
And yeah, creating a province would give them a whole government, so they'd get represented. But it's not needed to give then said representation.
I don't get why textbooks would need to be changed, you'd just need information campaigns.
scratching at .8, just hopin'
1. Indians come from Southern Asia. We're talking about the First Nations.
2. Theoretically, they already have representation through their chiefs and the relevant federal ministries. Clearly it's not enough to give them some means of voting and then say "they're represented, what more do they need?".
3. Do you think there haven't been attempts?
edited 14th Dec '12 6:08:45 AM by RadicalTaoist
Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
Why would the goal be to right old wrongs? Shouldn't it be to find the best arrangement for all concerned in the here and now?
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