Voter Apathy

Split off from the "Does The GOP Want The US To Default?" thread.

Keep it civil, not that I think this one'll be particularly controversial.

• Do you believe in the saying "If you don't vote, you have no right to complain?"
• Does every vote count? Why/Why not?
• What can be done to decrease voter apathy?
• What do you feel causes said apathy to begin with?

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My own thoughts on the issues, for once:

• Not in most cases, no. Unless the races is extremely close, the only people with no right to complain are the ones who voted in the winning candidate.
• See above. Every vote only counts when the split is roughly 50/50. Once it approaches 75/25, whether one votes or not doesn't matter, unless, for whatever reason, the side with greater numbers is also the more apathetic side, more or less balancing things out.
• Not a whole lot, short of changing how the system works all together. Besides that, some of the apathetic voters are simply truly apathetic, essentially feeling that no matter who wins, they'll be happy/unhappy, so it doesn't matter at all to them.
• Hard to say. Possibly the fact that the losers have no real recourse— they just have to be unhappy for however long the term being voted on is. After a few losses, the feeling of "nothing'll change, so why bother?" sets in. Whether that's a self-fulfilling prophecy or not varies. Sometimes it is, sometimes it's just the truth.

They lost me. Forgot me. Made you from parts of me. If you're the One, my father's son, what am I supposed to be?

1. No, because just going to the ballot box doesn't mean you had a choice, there are systemic flaws involved.

2. See above. Systemic flaws.

3. Reforming the system would be my priority. Adding None of the Above, replacing First past the post and Winner-takes-all, or at least, offering an alternative to them. I'm torn on making free and voluntary power bloc associations to replace the gerrymandered districts, but maybe.

4. Systemic flaws.

Why shoud I care?Just kidding!Just getting into the apathetic spirit.

One of the things that people should realize is that there really is a situation where via voting different voters have very different opportunity costs to voting. This is actually a bigger issue at least as far as I can tell as apathy in and of itself.

For example, if in one location you have a 5 minute wait and in another location you have a 3 hour wait, that's a very different cost in terms of voting, and will substantially affect the results.

As well, it might be easier for different classes of voters to say get out of work early to vote vs. other classes of voters. Again, this isn't "apathy" per se, but it explains a bit of why people don't vote for options other than not being satisfied with any of the given candidates.

And where they're not satisfied, I think it's silly to think that they're looking for some centrist knight in shining armor. More often than not they're looking for a more extremist candidate to vote for.

Democracy is the process in which we determine the government that we deserve

• Only if you are particularly into some cause. If so, and yet you still don't vote, then you really can't complain... and you're an idiot. However, it does come across as extremely annoying if someone complains about government constantly and yet can't be bothered to go do something—however tiny—about it. The only excuse one can have might be mine: I'm simply not old enough yet.
• Technically, yes. By Rule of Perception, not really, but if enough people that we didn't expect to vote do vote, then it can add up. A single vote doesn't mean a thing... unless it's really that close... but enough single votes starts to kick things around and surprise people. Not that it happens often.
• I don't know. If I did, I'd do it, I imagine.
• Because the world sucks. Even if it's better than the past, all we seem to hear about is how it's all going down. So the attitude becomes "it's going to hell, with or without us, so why bother?" To an extent, it's true to, although whether it's justification for voter apathy is an entirely different issue.

I am now known as Flyboy.

• No. I still have to live here. Trust me. If I could leave, I would.
• No, only the winning votes count. It doesn't matter how many times I vote for my cat, my cat will never run things (even if he'd do a better job at it).
• Have candidates that don't suck. Right now, I have to choose between Lying Morons A, B, and C in the primary election, then choose between Lying Moron B and Lying Moron K in the actual election.
• After a certain point, it doesn't matter who's in office, nothing changes. Things are pretty much never going to get better for people in my economic bracket, and we're entirely too busy trying to make ends meet than to pay attention to a bunch of idiots talking about stuff that doesn't apply to you.

edited 27th Jul '11 10:36:46 PM by DrunkGirlfriend

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

I think that if you have the ability to vote and don't, then you don't get to complain when things don't change. Like, I live only a couple blocks away from where our gubernatorial and presidential voting was held. Nearly everyone above eighteen in my neighborhood can just walk over there (in a lot of cases, just cross the street, it's an elementary school) and vote after showing some sort of ID.

There are doubtless cases where it's difficult to vote, but when it's as easy in my case then you don't get to complain when you choose not to. If you're that apathetic to the act of voting, then you're apathetic to the consequences of other people's decisions.

As for the origin of voter apathy; it starts young. Our history and government classes aren't exactly aren't exactly set up to engage student attention. We aren't really taught why our votes are important until college, if at all. Making us care starts at the student level.

Alternately, you get high schools that hype up voting so much that it sets up unrealistic expectations. I was taught that voting was some sort of magic bandage that you could do to fix everything.

After a couple of years you learn that nothing changes for the better, whether you vote or not.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

Eh, I don't know about that. I was never showed anything like the whole "magic bandage", voting rarely seemed to be addressed while I was in high school. Except for maybe once by a substitute while Congress was changing whoever was in the majority at the time. And that was by a guy from Vietnam or something, so he had a very different view on it than the usual teacher did.

Perhaps that's the issue, we're not taught by people who can see why the ability to vote is a good thing. But my point remains; if we're not taught why our voting is important how likely are we to actually do it? I voted young because my mom made me; she took it on herself to make sure I knew what as going on. Otherwise I was just "eh" about nearly everything. Course, it would also help if history and government classes could tell us what the different in Democrats and Republicans are supposed to be and how our voting can affect those parties.

I guess it depends on the school district. It was pounded into our heads from a young age that voting was this wonderful thing that we could use to change the world for the better. It wasn't until I was actually old enough to vote that I learned what complete nonsense that was.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

I don't really mind the apathetic voters not voting, they are the kind of people who don't do any research on who they vote for if they were to vote and vote for candidates because they are "hip" or other superficial reasons.

"right now, I have to choose between Lying Morons A, B, and C in the primary election"

What? Where do you live! I only get a choice between lieing power hungry asshole R and lieing power hungry asshole D, plus a few people who will never win because of generations of indoctrination into such a system that they accept it as normal.

edited 27th Jul '11 11:53:48 PM by deuxhero

> Do you believe in the saying "If you don't vote, you have no right to complain?"

Yes, voting is minimal requirement on participate on democratic society, if you unwilling to make such small effort for that (even if your vote guaranteed to lose) , you don't care/know enough about your own government to complain.

> Does every vote count? Why/Why not?

No, a lot of time party/people would have guaranteed support in an area that they assured to win.

> What can be done to decrease voter apathy?

• make every election day a holiday
• open list proportional representation
• make political party more active / engaged to voters

ex: norway style parade, summer camps, etc

• encourage party to create 'underbouw'(dutch term ?) sub groups that affiliated to party

ex : party youth, party-affiliated labor union, party sponsored sports team

• ban family of politician (wife, son, brother) from become candidate in same legislative chamber
• give every candidate money and airtime to reduce the influence of central party leadership and political donor
• reduce number of office that people need to go vote. one a year voting is maximum, otherwise people get bored.
• reduce corruption in government

> What do you feel causes said apathy to begin with?

Nothing change after a lot of election, a lot of politician are corrupt, party dominance in placing candidate, importance of money and media, others voter apathy

• Do you believe in the saying "If you don't vote, you have no right to complain?"
• Does every vote count? Why/Why not?
• What can be done to decrease voter apathy?
• What do you feel causes said apathy to begin with?

1) No. Everybody automatically has the right to complain; to be taken seriously on the other hand has to be earnt. I take complaints from those who voted for the loser more seriously than those who voted for the winner and those who didn't vote at all least of all.

2) No. Some constituencies are forgone conclusions. This is an exception to 1)

3) Have Parties with different programs.

4) The Evil Government wants apathetic citizens. They put stuff in the TV, in the Newspapers in the Schools and in the Water.

Liberty! Equality! Fraternity!

Goodness, no! Representatives are responsible to every citizen of their constituencies.

Yes, because everybody needs to have the mentality that his/her vote counts, lest nothing gets done.

Propaganda.

• Learned helplessness
• Being content enough with one's current circumstances
• Bread and circuses

edited 30th Jul '11 10:34:12 AM by Grain

Anime geemu wo shinasai!

I'll paraphrase Chomsky. The rich have a lot of clout, mostly through fundraising - but also through tricks such as gerrymandering.

What's more, the parties are basically puppeted by the same interests no matter what level. And they never keep their campaign promises. If I was a lower class person of color, I'd view everyone in government as someone who's out to kick me out of my building and - preferably - out of town altogether. (especially here in NYC)

The above answers most of your other questions.

What can be done to fight apathy? Give free airtime to candidates, like civilized people do it. If there's some big secret about it, I've never heard it.

edited 30th Jul '11 6:34:03 PM by johnnyfog

I'm a skeptical squirrel

The problem is that widespread voter apathy on one side reinforces voter apathy. If I look at the statistics and think "oh, may as well not bother voting", then when other people look at the statistics, they'll draw the same conclusion. But if you and your apathetic friends go out and vote, you'll change those statistics. Maybe not from 75/25 to 40/60 or whatever, but you'll nudge it. 70/30, maybe. And confidence will grow from there; next election? 60/40. It's all about pushing away apathy by influencing the numbers.

If none of your candidates meet your views, make compromises; if my choices were Extremely Right-Wing Chap and Right-Leaning Fellow, I'll vote for Fellow, if only because he probably offers the range of options which are closest to my views.

Anyway.

1) I do not; I think voting would be wise, regardless, but little more then that.

2) Yes, it does. See my first paragraph; if you can't be arsed, how can you expect others to care either? Look at the voter turnout figures; if you vote for your party (even if you think you'll lose), you decrease the voter turnout figure. And it's a proven fact that if a lot of people vote, it encourages more voting (people go along with the crowd).

3) Getting more people to vote; see my last point above. Apart from that, make turning up to the voting booth mandatory (or facing a fine). Yes, you can still fold your ballot, but it's a helpful prod in the right direction for many. Hey, if you're going there anyway, you may as well vote. Set voting days so that they align with bank holidays, and allow voting-by-post for those who want it. Make it convenient to vote. Cushion the path of least resistance.

4) Smaller voter turnout doesn't help. It's also self-perpetuating. It's also the fact that people tend to be content with things how they are; a small slide doesn't hurt them much. It's only when that slide picks up momentum and sends them careening down a hill do they start sitting up and taking notice. Too late to do anything, of course, but...

America needs to ditch the electoral college system. I will never be able to personally rally enough like-minded voters to make California go anything but Democratic, so any vote I cast for President does not matter. (Of course, my vote on ballot propositions still counts for something . . .)

edited 31st Jul '11 3:09:41 AM by feotakahari

That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful

Every vote always counts, unless your side is winning. Even in a broken electoral system like ours, there are tactical options for every situation. Remember, all's fair in love and war.

Primaries and draft campaigns, you should participate in them.

Eric,

@Feo: Opposite party but I feel your pain. I voted for Obama, but given missouri was carried by mccain, I didnt get any say whatsoever in the end.

edited 31st Jul '11 6:11:55 AM by Midgetsnowman

I feel like I should try to get more people to vote, but there's a problem. There's no easy way to find people near me who both agree with me politically and are not already planning on voting.

Blind Final Fantasy 6 Let's Play

I think you have the right to complain whether you voted or not, especially since voting is a hassle for those who need change the most, and the two-party system makes it even more difficult for your vote to count for anything.

I agree with a lot of the previous suggestions to reduce voter apathy:

• Make election days paid holidays for everyone - close down the stores, bars, and restaurants. Make it so that the lower class has time to vote and aren't losing money because of it, and also make it so that voting is pretty much the only interesting thing you can do that day.
• Make it fun and easy to vote - at the booths, by mail, even on the internet. Make it a mini-party - have refreshments at the voting booths, and a little something to occupy their time if the waits are long.
• Have a summary of every candidate's position on posters at the actual voting booth - they should be objective and written by a third party, including only the positions and not the tactics used to gather support for them, but also be approved by the actual candidates themselves. This way, even the people that showed up just for the food or because they had nothing else to do aren't totally blind going in.
• Give every candidate free airtime, and make the donation limit for campaigns much smaller - do everything possible to reduce the clout of huge organizations. And for God's sake, make the debating period smaller. It seems like the campaigns for 2012 began as soon as Obama was inaugurated. I like the UK's six months or so. It could be even smaller. Keep it short and sweet - don't force people to follow your campaign for years in order to catch your inconsistencies and hypocrisy.
• Give a realistic picture of our government and the voting process in schools - don't tout it as a magic cure-all, but stress that if enough people shed their apathy, voting would count for a lot more. Let students watch and analyze Presidential debates in their history classes for a few weeks.

edited 31st Jul '11 11:00:33 AM by OnTheOtherHandle

"War doesn't prove who's right, only who's left." "Every saint has a past, every sinner has a future."

That of course depends on whether there are political parties you can vote for that would actually fix the thing that bugs you. If there is, I think it's correct to say that you shouldn't bitch when you're not even trying to change it yourself (by giving your vote).

Yes, it does. Amounts of votes are made up of single votes (at least where I live...) so obviously every single vote counts. Yes, there are times when one vote isn't going to change anything. However, more often than not you can't predict this and only reflect on the outcome saying "derp, I could have saved my energy for this". It has happened often enough that the votes between two were extremely close.

Don't know because...

...I don't know the causes. I seriously doubt that people have interest in politics yet are too lazy to vote. I think they just don't care because they aren't seeing any significant changes between parties and don't want to take the time to inform themselves about the parties and their politics.

Murrl LustFatM