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BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#1: Jul 12th 2011 at 6:47:56 AM

I'm reposting this from another forum, where someone wrote it up. I'm afraid he didn't link to his sources, but it's interesting reading anyway.

A growing body of archaeological evidence indicates that genetically and anatomically modern humans shared the world with other, distinct hominin species. Their historical divergence is profound, ranging from a minimum of 500,000 years to a maximum likely close to 2 million years. We now suspect that when H. Sapiens Sapiens left Africa some 70,000 YA they would have encountered at least three other (possibly four) extant species of human significantly different in evolution and cultural development.

Some introductory info:

In Indonesia there was the now famous "hobbit", a distant cousin of modern humans likely diverging as much as 1 million years prior (with the Out of Africa migration of Homo Erectus). They persisted on Flores Island as recently as 12k YA. Given that modern humans had contact with this area by roughly 45k YA there is a 30,000 year time frame in which contact could have taken place. They used sophisticated Upper Paleolithic stone tools and had mastered fire. It is possible, but not confirmed, that they had some rudimentary language skills. While they would have appeared very different from modern humans, their use of language, tools, and fire would have set them apart from local animals.

The Neanderthal in Europe is probably the best well known parallel species to modern humans. Divergence is roughly 500,000 years ago, with full development of the 'Neanderthal' appearing around 120k YA in the Middle East and Europe. The last populations on Gibraltar likely died out 24,000 years ago, with the majority vanishing from Europe some 30,000 years ago. This gives them a roughly 20,000 year overlap with modern humans in Europe (with most human migrations running from Central Asia into Europe some 50,000 years ago). Their tool cultures were analogous to their contemporaries in modern humans running from the Mousterian to the Gravettian tool kits. That is, they had use of wood, bone and stone tools, as well as fire, and used animal hides for both clothing and shelter. They had burial rituals, portable art (jewelry and decorative carvings) and possibly some knowledge of herbal medicine. It is certain they had language, the FOXP 2 gene is shared with humans and is strongly associated with language acquisition; they also had a developed larynx and hyoid, the necessary bone structures for articulate speech. Evidence exists that they traded goods and even technology with early modern humans prior to the last Ice Age. mDNA analysis suggests that Asian peoples have 1-3% shared DNA and Europeans up to 4% shared DNA, indicating at least some interbreeding. Africans have no DNA overlap whatsoever.

The newest discovery is the Denisovan artifacts found in the Siberian mountains. Genetically distinct from both modern humans and the Neanderthal, the Denisovan culture overlapped with modern human occupation of the Central Asian Steppes some 40,000 years ago. The Denisovan may have shared a common ancestor with Neanderthal, but possibly introgressed into extant Homo Erectus populations in Central and East Asia 400k YA. Very little is known about their technology or culture, but genetic analysis revealed a somewhat surprising fact: modern Melanesian (New Guinean) peoples share up to 6% genetic overlap, indicating early contact interbreeding.

There is some scant evidence as well that early Out of Africa migrant Homo Sapiens may have encountered residual Homo Erectus populations in East Asia and Indonesia. These would have been tool using, hunter-gather tribes of hominin peoples who would almost certainly have lacked any ability to produce spoken language any more advanced than modern Chimpanzees. Though most would have been extinct 100k YA, there is some evidence that populations in remote regions surived to as late as 50k YA.

So...some random thoughts on the subject. As a historian, as a theist, as a storyteller, as a gamer...

How would our ancient ancestors have reacted to these peoples? Even Homo Erectus would have been distinct from anything *animal* with its use of tools and upright posture. The Neanderthals would have been incredibly similar - able to talk, using fire and contemporary tool kits of similar style, clothed in animal hides and hunting similar game. Would there have been immediate hostility, recognition of a dangerous competitor? Trade likely happened between Neanderthals and humans at least, likely between the others as well. At least some interbreeding happened, though the circumstances are lost in time. Would they have recognized each other's similarities? Or emphasized their differences? Our ancestral humans would have possessed more advanced technologies for weapon use (or so the archaeologists tell us) but otherwise they would have been starkly similar.

And the span of overlaps is huge...20,000 years! Longer than the pyramids have stood, longer than North America has been inhabited. There are whole histories lost there, unwritten, stories forgotten. I'm tempted to appeal to Jung's theories of the primitive man, the echoes of ancient narratives embedded in our pscyhe deep below our conscious thought. Are Neanderthals the origins of the legends of dwarves, goblins, trolls...? Idle speculation, and unlikely of course, but...still.

It certainly suggests something for a fantasy setting. As gamers we're used to have multiple race cultures side by side, but this is a challenging question - how would they really have related? I certainly don't know, but it seems fertile ground for fiction to explore. The worlds of the late Pleistocene would have been wonderously complex. Neanderthals inhabited Europe longer than genetically modern humans have existed. The Toba catastrophe bottleneck and the final blows of the Younger Dryas created a new world where only one species of human did survive, but there are so many what ifs and what dids?

On a theological note...most Christian theologians exclude animals from salvation. So where does that leave Neanderthal and Floresiensis? Were they humans with souls? Were they animals without souls? Either way, what does that say about the masses of modern humans who posses 1-4% Neanderthal DNA? Those with 6% Denisovan? The only "pure" humans are those from Africa. If the plan of salvation is only for humans...what about those of us who aren't pure human? What about our great-ancestors amongst the Homo Erecti who certainly weren't modern humans in any real sense of the word?

And as this evidence grows, it sharpens questions...do races actually exist on a biological standing? For years, the strongest defense against racial theory was the simple fact that biological races don't exist at all, but if mDNA mapping changes that, if races do in fact have a genetic grounding...what does that mean? What should it mean? Anything? Nothing? Something?

I'm sort of idly ruminating here. I have some early thoughts for a novel set just prior to the last glacial maximum some 30,000 years ago, but so sketchy as to be just random ideas bouncing around in my head at this point.

Just tossing all of this out...what do you think? Philosophically, what does this say about our conceptions of being human? Spiritually, what does it say about ourselves and the world?

Personally, I think the idea of other humanoid species existing alongside humanity is pretty cool. As he said, this might be the origin of various "precursor" legends, and it's still kind of cool and makes you wonder what kind of society they might have had.

Though we know they were having rishathra*

with humans. [grin]

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
DeMarquis Since: Feb, 2010
#2: Jul 12th 2011 at 8:22:01 AM

Just a quick post, to keep the thread up, I may write more extensively later.

We do know that Modern Humans have Neanderthal DNA, so inter-breeding did occur. That technically means that N were not a separate species per se, but rather a sub-species along with our ancestors. The same may have been true for the other "species" mentioned, but I would have to do the research on that.

Modern usage of the term "race" is generally used to indicate sub-populations among modern, contemporary humans. These populations were never genetically completely distinct, and did not derive from other sub-species such as Neanderthals. All contemporary humans descended from the population that left Africa about 50-70K years ago, and for all practical purposes are genetically identical.

I personally think it is implausible that some sort of "memory" of those ancient sub-species was somehow preserved in our oral folklore for all those tens of thousands of years. Where are the stories about the figures in the cave paintings? "Precursor stories" likely have another origin. I cant rule it out, though.

I think it would be really interesting to develop a story about different species of homo living in an entirely integrated (yet tribal) society. They trade together, they fight one another, they ally with each other, they marry each other, and they ignore each other in neighboring valleys. Then the climate changes, and only one group can cope. Might be fun to play with.

As for souls, that deserves it's own thread. I have a complex set of beliefs regarding the relationship between humans, animals and God, which I doubt I could summarize quickly. But the short answer is yes, they had them.

SlightlyEvilDoctor Needs to be more Evil Since: May, 2011
Needs to be more Evil
#3: Jul 12th 2011 at 2:15:33 PM

If you'd consider Neanderthals as a different species, you may as well consider Pygmies and Bushmen as different, if I remember correctly, for some models at least Neanderthals are closer to Europeans in the human family tree than Pygmies are (even without that interbreeding thing - i.e. Pygmies / non-pygmies could have "branched off" before Neanderthals).

Point that somewhere else, or I'll reengage the harmonic tachyon modulator.
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#4: Jul 12th 2011 at 4:38:57 PM

Has anyone else read the children's book "The Kin"? It was about prehistoric humans and their legends, and how a small group of them survive after a volcano eruption and the death of most of their tribes.

They encountered a group that didn't have language, and spent a while debating whether or not they were people. Eventually they decided that they were and intermarried with them.

Be not afraid...
DeMarquis Since: Feb, 2010
#5: Jul 13th 2011 at 7:31:47 AM

@Slightly: There are some studies that appear to indicate the European Cro-Magnons interbred with the Neanderthal in their area, and that traces of this DNA have been passed on to their descendants. This would include surviving ancient European populations such as the Basques. While technically this means that certain White Europeans are "closer" genetically to Neanderthals, this overlap is miniscule compared to the amount of DNA we have in common with all humans worldwide. It's like saying that my extended family should be considered a separate species because we are closer to one another genetically than we are to anyone else.

carbon-mantis Collector Of Fine Oddities from Trumpland Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Married to my murderer
Collector Of Fine Oddities
#6: Jul 13th 2011 at 7:41:38 AM

On Neanderthals, from what I remember there's still a bunch of debate amongst taxonomists as to whether they should be classified as Homo neanderthalensis or Homo sapiens neanderthalensis.

SlightlyEvilDoctor Needs to be more Evil Since: May, 2011
Needs to be more Evil
#7: Jul 13th 2011 at 8:58:40 AM

[up][up]I know about the introgression of Neanderthal Genes in modern humans, I was referring to the split between the San/Khoisan/Pygmies and the rest of humans happening before the split between modern humans and Neanderthals. My memory was wrong though, it looks like Neanderthals split off way before the Pygmies (300k years vs. 70k years).

[up]I think the evidence of interbreeding significantly boosted the case for Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, since the definition of species usually is cross-fertility (though I think biologists use a finer definition than that, especially for cases like bacteria where there is no concept of breeding).

edited 13th Jul '11 8:59:08 AM by SlightlyEvilDoctor

Point that somewhere else, or I'll reengage the harmonic tachyon modulator.
DeMarquis Since: Feb, 2010
#8: Jul 13th 2011 at 5:16:03 PM

It's complicated, and not just for bacteria. There is an interesting case of an arctic bird, whose territory stretches all the way from Scandanavia to the far eastern end of Siberia, thousands of miles. Apparently those birds whose territories are near each other can inter-breed, yet birds from the far western and far eastern ends of the range cannot.

LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#9: Jul 13th 2011 at 5:23:26 PM

Aren't there also some cases where species technically can breed with each other (and produce fertile offspring) but in the wild they have virtually no chance of doing that?

An example I remember is two species of birds that find mates with song. If the two birds did have sex they would have fertile offspring, but because their mating songs are so different they never do.

Be not afraid...
DeMarquis Since: Feb, 2010
#10: Jul 13th 2011 at 5:38:43 PM

Didnt know about that one. The concept of "species" very slippery and not at all rigorous and precise.

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