How did the world begin?

I've always curious on that. Being a Christian, I have been taught that the God created the world (let's really not get into religious argument here) yet the same people who taught me that also are convinced of Big Bang theory.

I made a Wild Mass Guessing that when the God said "Let there be light", that light was indicating the Big Bang (technically Big Expansion, but hey).

Tell me if I'm getting this wrong; the most basic of laws of physics state that nothing can be created out of nowhere, right? This entire reality must have been competely nil at some point, until something was created. Where did that something come from? Would that mean that there really is a supernatural being that trascends laws of physics and all? Tell me if this doesn't make any sense or not because I really don't know anything when it comes to astrology or physics.

I'm a (socialist) professional writer serializing a WWII alternate history webnovel.

Astronomy. Astrology is star-signs and all that jazz.

I like the idea of cyclical universes, myself. But if something did set it off, I'm more inclined to think Sufficiently Advanced Aliens than gods. I suppose it's quite hard to draw the line there.

edited 4th Jul '11 3:21:17 AM by pagad

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.

Well, this is one of the reasons why I am a theist (not sure if I can call myself Christian or not) - ex nihilo nihil fit. What was before the Big Bang, why was there a Big Bang and where did the thing that was before it come from?

"Take your (...) hippy dream world, I'll take reality and earning my happiness with my own efforts" - Barkey

Actually I believe the universe was still opaque at that time.

Personally I'm with Einstein, “The distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion”.

"Had Mother Nature been a real parent, she would have been in jail for child abuse and murder." -Nick Bostrom

Well, when Eru and the Ainur sung the Ainulindalë...

Wait, no. Wrong world.

"Is fearr Gaeilge briste ná Béarla cliste."

Whoops.

Heh, that's one of my trump card when dicussing with atheists. I've yet to seen one capable of making a counter-argument on that one.

I'm a (socialist) professional writer serializing a WWII alternate history webnovel.

If the universe can't have come into existence ex nihilo or just have existed forever, neither can God.

"Had Mother Nature been a real parent, she would have been in jail for child abuse and murder." -Nick Bostrom

It was made.

UN JOUR JE SERAI DE RETOUR PRÈS DE TOI

Not necessarily - you forget that God (if He exists of course) is a supernatural being. IIRC, somewhere in the Bible it is explicitly stated that God doesn't have a beginning or end

"Take your (...) hippy dream world, I'll take reality and earning my happiness with my own efforts" - Barkey

Did you miss the "supernatural being that trascends the laws of physics" part?

I'm a (socialist) professional writer serializing a WWII alternate history webnovel.

What differentiates that from a Sufficiently Advanced Alien, may I ask?

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.

Simple. They come from somewhere. God doesn't.

I'm a (socialist) professional writer serializing a WWII alternate history webnovel.

but but but why? That makes no sense.

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.

Yes he's magic. I get it. But we don't need a magic explanation is my point.

"Had Mother Nature been a real parent, she would have been in jail for child abuse and murder." -Nick Bostrom

He's God, he ain't gotta explain shit.

I mean, it's like that old "If God can't create a rock so big that he can't lift it, he's not omnipotent" fallacy. He'd create that rock; then he'd lift it, because he's God.

"Is fearr Gaeilge briste ná Béarla cliste."

, The point I was making is that the very reality itself, according to the laws of physics, is impossible; let's say there's the world is created by Big Expansion. Then where did the source material come from? It has to come from SOMEWHERE and what else is there before that? Nothing. It came out of nothing, which according to physics, is absolutely impossible.

Therefore, the only way the reality itself can exist, is through an intervention of a supernatural being, whether it be God or otherwise.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not that big in phsyics and astronomy.

That's...seriously, I'm a Christian but even I cannot accept that.

edited 4th Jul '11 4:01:10 AM by dRoy

I'm a (socialist) professional writer serializing a WWII alternate history webnovel.

Why does the Universe need to have a beginning?

"Had Mother Nature been a real parent, she would have been in jail for child abuse and murder." -Nick Bostrom

God can't create that object because it's not logically consistent.

Mass-energy is conserved. Space isn't.

Da Rules excuse all the inaccuracy in the world. Listen to them, not me.

Because the universe itself falls under the laws of physics, as far as I know. Who knows, maybe it could be proved many decades or centuries from now that things CAN come from nowhere, but currently Newton wins.

Huh, it isn't? Come to think of it, what is it made of, dark matter*

?

Also, can you explain the logical inconsistency and do it simply because I'm not good when it comes to logic.

edited 4th Jul '11 4:10:01 AM by dRoy

I'm a (socialist) professional writer serializing a WWII alternate history webnovel.

There are many theories where the Universe has no beginning or end and they are consistent with all known laws of physics.

Also.

edited 4th Jul '11 4:18:33 AM by LoveHappiness

"Had Mother Nature been a real parent, she would have been in jail for child abuse and murder." -Nick Bostrom

^ This.

If you say "well, God's magic" as an explanation for "where did God come from", you've done a wonderful job of giving the questioner an empty answer. You aren't even answering their question: he's supernatural, yes, but that doesn't mean anything. Why can you not extend the universe the same privilege as God?

Huh? God can do that, because God's magical. If he can exist without starting to begin, why can he not do the impossible?

edited 4th Jul '11 4:21:23 AM by AllanAssiduity

Or — and that's the solution of the fallacy I favor — "a rock so big that God could not lift it" is a self-contradictory, meaningless description. It does not denote anything, in this world or in any possible world. You could as well ask if God could create a triangle with four sides: He couldn't, of course, but that's not because of any limitation to His omnipotence — rather, that's because "a triangle with four sides" is a meaningless description.

As for the main question... well, the origins of our world are pretty clear by now. Around 4.54 billions of years ago, parts of the Solar Nebula started gathering more and more matter through gravitational attraction, eventually forming all planets (including Earth). Some time afterwards, a smaller protoplanet hit Earth, which ejected a part of the mantle. That part eventually became the Moon.

But if we are talking about the whole universe, well, obviously there is much that is not known at the moment. I personally think that an Intelligence (whose Nature may of course be radically different under many aspects from that of human intelligences, but perhaps surprisingly similar under others) was ultimately responsible for the existence of the universe, but the exact means with with this was obtained are unknown to me. I may just point out that this act of creation may not be something that "fits" in the universe's timeline, in any case — in a certain sense, God and His creative act may reside "outside" the universe and its concepts of time and space. So, for example, an hypothetical "infinitely old" universe would be perfectly compatible with this viewpoint.

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

(shrugs) The very fact that supernaturality is possible sounds logical enough for me. About granting the same previlege on the universe...I can't say anything on that matter because I don't know much about it. That's what I think.

I'm a (socialist) professional writer serializing a WWII alternate history webnovel.

^ Ah, in this case, I'll have to ask to see your definition of supernatural, then. Mine is: "of, pertaining to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal." That look about right to you?

Just clearing out my semantics here.

Curses, definitions! My mortal enemy!

Well, I never actually said supernatural, but rather, trascends the laws of physics, as in, "It is impossible for anything to be created out of nothing."

I'm a (socialist) professional writer serializing a WWII alternate history webnovel.