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Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 9th 2024 at 3:24:05 PM
Shameful Display
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Something my country has quite a bit of experience with. I wonder why China never has this problem? I mean on the rare occasion they acutely do something, it's treated like their goddam saints, never mind that the US does way more for foreign countries than they do. Still I suppose some concern is warranted when it comes to Germany. Though in my opinion Syriza, are being petulant. To much Austerity was harmful,but their is no denying that the welfare state that the Greeks established was bloated and inefficient beyond belief. I mean retirement at 50,in an era where people can easily live to be over 80!! And of course their is the inability of previous governments to crack down on tax cheating.
Can you eloborate on the concern part?
Shameful Display
The concern is nothing logical, but basically boils down to "It's Germany." Considering how monstrous the actions of the Nazi's were, and how they are still within living memory, I would say the rest of Europe has been remarkably forgiving,defiantly helped by Germany being genuinely repentant. Although nations are not people, but I can't help but find it a bit Karmic that after all of Germany's attempts to take over Europe, they find themselves running it, and goddam miserable as a result.
Believe me or not, but we're saying something similar over here, albeit more in a joking manner. "We lost two wars trying to take over Europe and now they want us to take over".
It's also noteworthy that Nazi Germany has become a major Berserk Button for citizens here - mostly because there are at least two generations of Germans now who weren't even born back then. Greek protesters using Nazi comparisons during one of Merkel's visits a few years ago cost Greece a lot of sympathy among the common German populace, i.e. the people who voted our current government in. The sentiment at the time was basically: "Insulting us and then still demanding money from us? Well, screw you!"
So the German government taking a hard stance towards Greece is actually something their voters want. Especially voters from my generation who grew up being constantly insulted in school for being German.
There's a lot of bitterness these days paired with a similar amount of apathy.
edited 28th Jun '15 10:10:54 PM by DrunkenNordmann
Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen.
@Jack O Lantern: The double-faced criticism with Germany comes from two fronts. The first one says that the EU should not be governed/controlled by one (or two, if we include France) of its own member-states. The second one says that, since Germany is responsible for the EU's future either way, they're still doing a poor job with that.
At least that's the sort of thing I've heard. Overall, I just think the EU as it stands now is unsustainable. It's pretty ridiculous that, when shit hits the fan, people have to resort to blaming the Germans or the Greeks instead of an actual European governing body.
Remind me, when the Greeks compared the current Germans to the Nazis, was it part of an official statement? Genuine question.
Well, there is also the point Germany has one of the biggest populations in Europe, and thus the biggest representation of a country by ministers at the EU Government. Basically, Germany is the Texas/California/New York of the EU. They have the most population, and since that gives them more influence, people are more likely to blame the Germans since Germans have more seats (and they also have more seats at the ECB), as with more seats, you have more authority over what does and doesn't get done..
A procrastination in of itself
@Jack, China doesn't have the problem because nobody likes China. China is nobody's freind and nobody would help China if it was in a bad situation.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Imperial knight
China is too big to fail.
Lazy and pathetic.
Shameful Display
Many things that were considered "to big to fail" have failed. GM would have gone bankrupt without federal intervention,as would much of the banking system, the USSR collapsed,and China has failed quite a bit in it's history. In short just because something is "to big to fail" doesn't mean it won't fail.
Imperial knight
GM and the banking system were saved because they were to big too fail.
Lazy and pathetic.
Shameful Display
But the Soviet Union wasn't. And several banks did fail,remember Leman Brothers.
Lost in Space
Germany is not Europe's mom, but its cultural paranoia of inflation (despite that being factually inaccurate — it was deflation that drove the nation into the hands of the Nazis) is, in large part, the driver of its current mania to suppress national deficits at all cost.
The current crisis is not Germany's fault, solely, but Germany is the top dog that's leading the pack, and as such it has de facto responsibility for the situation. If Merkel called for a concession to Greece's demands for mitigation of austerity, the rest of the troika would surely fall in line.
The stupid thing is that the narrative that Germany is paying for the bailouts of the debtor nations is blatantly false; the prescription to resolve the crisis sanely would actually benefit German citizens.
Germany has seized the reins of Europe in a desperate grip, steering it towards the edge of a cliff in a bid to avoid the totally imaginary one that it fears lies ahead.
edited 29th Jun '15 7:02:58 AM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
@ Jonnas N
There wasn't an official statement from the Greek government, as far as I'm aware. As I said, it was the people who protested in the streets. That didn't go over well with German citizens, to say the least. You don't get much sympathy when people think you hate them and only want them to give you money.
Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen.
There is also Syriza's official party newspaper who portrayed Schäuble as KZ-guard.
@ Fighteer : "Germany is not Europe's mom, but its cultural paranoia of inflation (despite that being factually inaccurate — it was deflation that drove the nation into the hands of the Nazis) is, in large part, the driver of its current mania to suppress national deficits at all cost"
I already pointed out to you that this is a view often held by foreign observers with little insight into German history. As many historians pointed out, the hyper inflation of 1923 played a part in Weimar's demise because it eroded German confidence in the young democracy (previously, many Germans were a lot more enthusiastic about it). Furthermore the Nazi's made it part of their "programme" while aiming for power, and highlighted their "achievement" of creating a stable currency post 1933. Additionally many Germans remember the years 1945-1949 when the Reichsmark was worth nothing, and when the D-Mark was introduced, the exchange rate was worth even less (my grandfather's mother lost all her savings she made for her retirement). Furthermore Germans have unusuall high saving rates (compare how many people in Southern Europe own houses compared to Germany) which means that high inflations affects our wealth disproportionally.
Besides, it is not like it would just be Germany payingthe bill for Greece. All of Greeks debtors, including relatively poor coutnries like Estonia and Slovakia would have to pay their due, which would certainly not go down better there than it does in Germany.
edited 29th Jun '15 11:09:18 AM by Zarastro
Lost in Space
@Zarastro: Greece's debt is a non-issue; a default would not affect creditor nations more than symbolically. The ECB has taken great pains to ensure that. Besides, it controls the currency; it can erase those debts by a simple measure of adding some digits to some accounts. The only reason it matters is because there is a morality play being run by the folks in power over a debt that is numerically impossible to repay.
Anyway, that debt is gone. It won't be repaid no matter what the outcome. Greece will leave the euro and repudiate it, or it will bow down to the demands of the troika and be subjected to ever stricter punitive measures which will depress its economy and keep it from making more than token payments.
Estonia and Slovakia will never see their investments repaid by Greece. All you've been doing is throwing good money after bad. The writeoffs should have been done years ago.
Edit: I wouldn't put it past the troika to symbolically punish the Eurozone by refusing to make good on Greece's debts, leaving everyone who put money into the bailouts in a hole, just to maintain the scapegoat factor.
edited 29th Jun '15 11:43:05 AM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
V
Or Italy — it's been said that 2.8% of GDP went to Greece.
Something different about Germany from The Economist. The whole article follows:
German television's new dawn -- Getting emotional
That could be about to change, however, thanks to a wave of new productions that challenge perceptions of what contemporary German TV drama can be. Foremost among them is “Deutschland 83”, an eight-part series about life in Berlin before the reunification of East and West Germany. So impressed is Sundance TV, an American channel, that it has decided to broadcast “Deutschland 83” in June in its original German—a very rare move. The series has also been bought up by broadcasters in France, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland and Iceland. Written by Anna Winger, a British-American novelist living in Berlin, “Deutschland 83” is based on the experiences of her husband and collaborator in the West German army, when there was an East German mole on his base. The political themes—activism, espionage, eavesdropping and the occupation of another country—should resonate with a non-German audience.
“Deutschland 83” has the potential to replicate the critical success of “Generation War” (Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter), a mini-series about five friends’ experiences of the second world war, which won an International Emmy last year. “Generation War” (pictured) sparked a national debate: it inspired many older Germans to talk about the war for the first time. The effect was almost primal. “I asked my 90-year old father how many people he’d killed, and he told me 25,” says Nico Hofmann, chairman of UFA Fiction, the company that produced both “Generation War” and “Deutschland 83”. “It was not so much catharsis, more a national outcry.”
Much of Germany’s recent drama shares the historical focus of the country’s most widely respected films, such as the existential U-boat quest “Das Boot”. “We are specialists in history because of our history,” says Annette Hess, the screenwriter of “Weissensee”, a cold-war saga in the style of “Romeo and Juliet” that airs on ARD, Germany’s main public-service network. These attempts to confront the country’s turbulent history seem to be changing the style of storytelling, which is increasingly in tune with the drama that is being made elsewhere. “It is more emotional and more horizontal,” says Mr Hofmann. “Before it was very didactic, very theoretical, very German.”
Yet the strengths of Germany’s popular, but rather low-brow, style of television drama could slow efforts to move in a new direction. “We are so professional, but we are so commercial,” says Ms Hess. She is keen to do “something that will shock a little”, and hopes her upcoming project for ZDF, Germany’s other public broadcaster, will do just that. “Berlin Kurfürstendamm” looks at the role of women in rebuilding Germany after the war, and tells the story through the prism of rock ‘n’ roll. “This dance was an attempt to get over the trauma of Nazism,” she says.
If Germany embraces a more challenging form of drama, it has the potential to be a more prolific creator of high-end television drama than the smaller Scandinavian countries, which make only a handful of productions a year. Germany's lack of a tradition of artistically challenging television drama (unlike the Danish industry, which grew up around a national film school and as a result has developed a distinct aesthetic style) could end up proving to be an advantage. “We simply do what’s best for the story,” says Susanne Müller, who oversaw ZDF co-productions such as “The Bridge”. “We’re a big community, there’s lots of productions, and everybody experiments. A lot of different styles are developing.”
Fans of crime dramas should still have plenty to choose from, and a number of upcoming productions are adopting a less conventional, more edgy style. One of Germany's top film directors, Tom Tykwer (“Run Lola Run”, “Cloud Atlas”) has announced plans for a 12-part series, “Berlin Babylon”, for Sky Germany, based on Volker Kutscher’s books about a detective fighting crime in the decadent days of the Weimar Republic. ZDF is also making a play for the international markets with “The Team”, a series about cross-border crime-fighting that is co-produced by various European countries. “It is not just the Germans,” says Ms Müller. “Everybody loves watching people getting killed whilst they sit safely on the sofa.”
Correction: We mistakenly said that “Deutschland 83 was based on the experiences of Anna Winger's husband as an East German mole in West Berlin. It was in fact based on his experiences in the West German army, when there was an East German mole on his base. We're very sorry for the error. This was corrected on May 11th 2015.
edited 29th Jun '15 11:52:55 AM by Greenmantle
Keep Rolling On
I'll add that
1) those loans should never have been made in the first place
2) the government should never have bought the debt from the private creditors, transferring the risks to European citizens
Lost in Space
Greece's private creditors should have been made to eat their losses, yes. Talk about moral hazard!
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Finland declines short-term travel ban waiver for Russian Duma chair
Party Crasher
Spain puts 'gag' on freedom of expression as senate approves security law.
Relatively old news but i'm not sure it's been discussed here before.
edited 2nd Jul '15 9:00:26 AM by LogoP
It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
edited 2nd Jul '15 9:29:59 AM by SomeNewGuy
X-posting from the North Korea thread:
N. Korean biochemical expert flees to Finland: source
Unconfirmed by the Foreign Ministry though.
Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
Iceland has made blasphemy legal, while still leaving in provisions for hate crimes.
http://m.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33378778
Better late then never, though I wonder how much this law was actually enforced in recent years.
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Fixed, thanks for that.
edited 3rd Jul '15 12:59:29 PM by Rationalinsanity
Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Lost in Space
You linked the wrong article.
That comes with any great power, economic or military. Benefactors love it when you help their problems but will also condemn you for imperialism the following week.