European Politics Thread

That is the question to ask. And tell me, walk around the provinces in Catalonia, Barcelona, Tarragona, Girona and Lleida. Visit the cities. Look at the competencies that the Govern and the Parlament de Catalunya has. Consider that they have their own autonomous police force. Catalonian is not only spoken freely, it is taught everywhere by legal obligation. Does such oppression exist? Are the catalonians a people who suffer the yolk of terrible Spanish cruelty?

That is not exclusive to Catalonia. That happens in Madrid, Galicia, Andalucia, Murcia, the Basque Country, Castille-Leon, Castille-La Mancha, Extremadura... everywhere you have descendants of victims of the civil war who are not seeing the Historical Memory Law being put into practice by regional goverments (including the Catalonian government, in coalition with Esquerra Republicana, a coalition called "Junts Pel Si") regarding the right to exhume the remains of their family and to bury them with dignity.

And as oppression? It is undignified and terrible, but hardly oppression by the standards that would legitimize the cause of self-determination.

edited 17th Sep '17 3:38:46 PM by germi91

"It is true that we are called a democracy, for the administration is in the hands of the many and not of the few."

Why not? A state is a collection of people who agree to be bound together, it becomes incredibly impractical once you hit a certain size but I see no reason why people shouldn't be allowed to form their own international entities if they are willing to accept the consequences that come with doing so.

I've always felt very awkwardly about the fact that we defended the right of the Kosovan people to declare independence but refuse to allow the Serbian people in what is now Kosovo to declare their own independence back to Serbia.

Legally you are 100% right, because under international law states are not just all that matter but in a sense all that exists, but morally? Morally a state is simply a human construction, it has no inherent rights, no life, what it has is things granted to it by the citizens that form it, those citizens can choose to revoke that granting of rights as they choose.

That's just an appeal to tradition, now it's a solid reason to oppose independence, but it doesn't grant lent he right to deny others the chance to make that choice. Many political bodies have exist for a long time, the English ruled Ireland for an incredibly long time, the French held Algeria for a long time, the Russian empire lasted ages, the Chinese have controlled Tibet for hundreds of years.

I actually oppose Catalonian independence, it seems to me to be a stupid idea build on resentment of regions that need help, divisiveness, isolationism and probably some bigotry as well.

But that doesn't mean they don't get to make the choice, just because I think it's a stupid selfish choice doesn't mean they don't get to make it, it just means that if they do make it they have to accept the consequences of their actions (that other nations may well not want to trade with them, that they may well owe the Spanish central government money for any central government assets in Catalonian territory, that they will have to take on a chunk of the Spanish national debt, etc...).

edited 17th Sep '17 3:35:44 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

The UN charter does actually. It's one of the few human rights that's actually written into the charter. "Democracy" appears nowhere, not even the human rights treaties^note Partly because one of the rights is for a state to choose its own institutions, but self-determination shows up everywhere. That said, states having a right to protect their territorial integrity is true too.

Look with century eyes... With our backs to the arch And the wreck of our kind We will stare straight ahead For the rest of our lives

"I actually oppose Catalonian independence, it seems to me to be a stupid idea build on resentment of regions that need help, divisiveness, isolationism and probably some bigotry as well."

I wholeheartedly agree. I have nothing but scorn for Catalonian separatist sentiment. They can be real smug assholes about it. But the central government's posturing on the matter is unacceptable and utterly counterproductive, and they are completely failing to communicate to the Catalans why they should want to stay, other than threatening them with violence if they try to leave.

I still believe that the Catalans should get to say what they actually want. If the separation is illegal, so be it, but they have a right to want out and say so.

edited 17th Sep '17 4:04:55 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

Because they already agreed in a referendum in 1978, with an overwhelming majority in Catalonia, to be bound to the current constitution. Of course, you will say, such a decision is not permanent, and the citizenry have the right to now and then be consulted to see if they continue to agree or desire a revision to the current arrangement or an entirely new constitution. I would agree, but I would not unilaterally disobey the law and hold an illegal referendum. The law is still the law, an expression of the general will. Our obligation is to deliberate on them, see what is moral, what is immoral, what is useful and not useful, revise them accondingly and obey them afterwards.

It is equally impractical and undesirable to allow a larger state to descend to village-level polities. It works against the solidarity and the fraternal bonds that citizens should have. In a democracy, we give ourselves to each other, otherwise democracy ceases to work. Oligarchy or tyranny usually follow as a result.

A state is the political community, the object which citizens have given life to directly and indirectly. As a construct, it has nothing inherent in terms of rights, objectively speaking. But we are not talking about the entirely of the Spanish citizenry, are we? No minority has the right to harm the rest of the political community through separation, especially when such a thing brings no more benefits than they already have. In fact, it only causes problems and resentment, as you have essentially divided your new proclaimed state in two: those who favour such a separation, and those who do not.

On principle, one might agree. But I cannot agree with it, when it harms others that are not only the catalonians. It affects the lifelihoods of all of those who don't agree and live in Catalonia. It affects the Spanish themselves. When it hurts others, separation is immoral and, consequently, illegal if the citizenry do so ordain it. You can be certain however, that the Catalonians would not agree to Barcelona becoming independent for instance. It is hypocrisy.

I will say though, that the current government is not tyrannical, but it is terrible and vile. The answer is to reform the current constitution or to proclaim a new one, but never to act illegaly. I would accept a referendum if it was agreed on by the government and the regional government, if it the necessary steps to make it legal were made. If the Spanish citizenry agreed to it, I could not go against the general will.

It does, but it is not interpreted to mean that any population, from a village to a city, has the right to secede.

I don't disagree. Their narrative is terrible and it attempts to do nothing other than purely enact the law (when it is convenient for them to do so), without even attempting to consider other territorial models or to allow the catalonians to express themselves via a consultation.

edited 17th Sep '17 4:06:41 PM by germi91

"It is true that we are called a democracy, for the administration is in the hands of the many and not of the few."

Some updates on the current situation in Catalonia. Use Google Translate.

http://www.rac1.cat/info-rac1/20170915/431299581712/la-guardia-civil-entra-als-mitjans-de-comunicacio-que-han-publicat-lanunci-del-referendum.html , http://www.elnacional.cat/es/politica/correus-deniega-distribucion-boletin-vecinal-articulo-proreferendum_191856_102.html , https://www.vilaweb.cat/noticies/el-tsjc-demana-una-llista-de-tots-els-mitjans-de-comunicacio-que-han-publicat-lanunci-del-referendum/ , http://www.ccma.cat/324/lacte-pel-dret-a-decidir-prohibit-a-madrid-desborda-les-previsions-i-deixa-gent-al-carrer/noticia/2809241/ , http://www.ccma.cat/324/la-guardia-civil-incauta-mes-material-del-referendum-a-sabadell/noticia/2809311/

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

perhaps you could summon up the bullet points?

In short, the police and government are censoring the media and intercepting the mail. In a very showy, threatening, and obtrusive way.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

Son I've been reading about an allegedly 17 year old immigrant in Sweden raping a 13 yearvold girl and receiving a 2 months sentence and that they are now 19 and didn't receive that sentence after all.

I am wondering if that is true, anybody know?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

@Septimus: only thing I found was a post in r/The_Donald quoting some Swedish newspapers, so have an archive.is.

The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground

Yeah, if it's in that cesspool, I'm not trusting it further than I can throw it.

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.

Well, if it's mentioned in Swedish newspapers it might be legit. I am just wondering because such stories are often quote mined or outright bogus.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Depends on the standards of the newspaper. Anyone can take a dump on a piece of paper and pass it on as news.

See also: the Daily Heil, Bild, Ekstra Bladet, and many more.

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.

So on Catalonia, local police are working with the central government?

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

Not yet. Nobody knows what they'll do.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

Iceland is now set for a snap election at the end of October, less than a year since our last snap election. Note that our (now acting) Prime Minister Bjarni Benediktsson of the Independence Party campaigned partially on the promise of stability. So much for that, huh? These are the current polls:

• Independence Party (main governing party): 26.4%
• Left Greens: 22.8%
• Pirates 12.5%
• Progressives: 10.5%
• People's Party: 9.8%
• Socialdemocrats: 9.0%
• Bright Future (the coalition partner that quit): 5.6%
• Reform Party (the remaining coalition partner): 2.7%

These polls aren't good news for the Independents, who remain the largest party but lacking many viable partners to form a majority government, with their traditional partners the Progressives not being quite big enough. The Independence Party still has enough "brand loyalty" that I wouldn't count them out, but this is definitely less than ideal for them, particularly since (unlike last year) they can't postpone the election until the scandals that brought it down are forgotten.

Okay, help me out, which one is the right wing party passing itself off as moderate to the voters? And which one is for the fanatic leftist who want to change the world?

Independence Party: A right-wing anti-European neoliberal party of relentlessly corrupt plutocrats who vigorously defend a sturdy system of spoils and nepotism. Their main goal: Starve Iceland's welfare and education so they can have an excuse for privatising every last bit and selling it to their cousins. Also, to my everlasting shame, Iceland's traditional governing party. I suppose that would be the first one.

Left Greens: Exactly What It Says on the Tin. De facto successor to the old Socialist Party.

Pirate Party: I suppose this would be the second one, though they reject the labels of right and left-wing politics. The main anti-establishment party, though thankfully devoid of racism and overt populism.

Progressives: A nominally center-right farmers' party, they became the country's de facto right-wing national populist party during the chairmanship of Prime Minister Sigmundur Davíð. After the protests against him last year, Sigmundur was ousted and replaced with the more moderate Sigurður Ingi, who seems to be trying to move the party back toward its pre-Sigmundur days. The party's in something of an identity crisis right now, hence the mediocre poll ratings.

People's Party: The new anti-immigrant populist party. However, they're very left-wing and anti-establishment in most of their policy proposals, making co-operation with the Independents unlikely.

Socialdemocrats: Exactly What It Says on the Tin. Formerly one of Iceland's strongest parties, they were nearly knocked out of parliament altogether in the last election. Their current prospects are something of a step up.

Bright Future: A young anti-corruption centrist party that totally betrayed all they stood for by entering a coalition with the Independents and getting essentially no concessions. I think them exiting the coalition a few says ago is not going to help them much.

Reform Party: A Europhile splinter party from the Independents, who also betrayed all they stood for by entering a coalition with their "mother party" and getting nothing in return. Not coincidentally, both them and BF have drastically shrunk in the polls since the last election what with people knowing that a vote for them is a vote for the Independents.

So.....you have either terrible parties who stand to their ideas or good parties who would betray their ideas?

Wouldn't it be good if your traditional ruling party looses enough ground for someone else to take over? But then there is always the danger that "someone else" is a bunch of xenophobe idiots....

The Pirates are not really terrible. Their position on the EU seems fairly balanced.

Dougsh is more informed on them than I am, though. Imo, sometimes certain countries need a group of people who are not conventional, but are also not on the left, center or right side of the political areas in regards to the establishment.

edited 19th Sep '17 9:29:28 AM by Quag15

I do think the Pirate Party is probably the most honest party on parliament right now. I voted for them last time, though I might strategically vote for the Left Greens or Social Democrats this time if I consider them more likely to stand against the Independence Party bloc come election day.

Spanish police storm Catalan government buildings to stop independence referendum

This is getting big enough that I made an OTC thread, but mods haven't opened it yet.

edited 20th Sep '17 1:33:16 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

T Here is a Spanish politics thread, you can resurrect it in the meanwhile.

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV

This will dramatically skew the referendum towards "yes", because in these conditions the only ones voting would be those who really want it.

Of course, it may be part of the Spanish gov's plan, to hypocritically claim that the referendum was unfairly biased by the circumstances even though they were the ones creating the latter.

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."

It also dramatically increases real support for the Yes.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.