Nationalism and patriotism

Spun off from a tangent in the British Politics thread.

What do these words mean to you? How do you feel about them? And how does this vary from country to country.

Personally I'm not very patriotic because, honestly, there's a lot of bad about Englishness that I'm not comfortable glossing over, and Britishness seems a bit shit TBH. (I'm not even sure what Britishness, as distinct from its constituent nationalities, is supposed to even mean.)

I've always thought that nationalism and patriotism were basically the same except for intensity. Patriotism is like waving your little flag at a football game and going "We're number one! Fuck yeah!" whereas nationalism is more like going "We're number one and we're going to riot and do crazy shit to prove it."

edited 23rd Jun '11 5:10:18 PM by DrunkGirlfriend

Chauvinism? How so?

Anyway, as a staunch Irish Nationalist, like I've said in the last thread, I've always considered Nationalism just to be another word for Patriotism, as would most other Irish Nationalists. You do occasionally get people doing crazy shizzle in the name of their country, but isn't there a specific term for that? Ultranationalism, or something?

Extremism, maybe?

A little general, but yeah, it'll work.

Nationalism: The best thing that can happen to a country. Without it, it has no identity and no initiative, it is a slave to the world's whims. Sadly, it is easily swayed and controlled by ambitious political figures.

Patriotism: The superior version of nationalism. The public consciously chooses to uphold and protect the national identity often by any means they have access to. Much, much harder to sway by political figures for ulterior reasons.

I'm a patriot! And a suprapatriot! Nationalism, what I've always been taught in History class, English and by people I know, is the extreme form of patriotism where everything is blown out of proportion.

Hmm. We seem to have a lot of disagreement regarding terminology here.

As I usually understand the terms, patriotism is loyalty to a country. Informally, nationalism is extreme patriotism, but when used by nationalists usually refers to strong identification with, and perhaps pride in, a particular nationality, often coupled with the desire for that nation to be self-governing or an independant state.

To me Nationalism could refer to one of two things. The first of these is ethnic nationalism, where they beleive that national identity and culture (be it on religious, ethnic or linguistic grounds, etc) are clearly definable, that each group (or most groups) has a rightful homeland and that these groups should be kept as separate as possible to prevent cultural assimiliation and changes to each nations identity and culture.

That would be the position of the likes of the BNP and similar groups, and is one that I personally oppose and abhore.

The other side to Nationalism is "liberal nationalism". This is the belief that just as all people should be considered equal etc then so should all nations, who have the right to equality, self-determination and sovereignty. Liberal nationalists would view a nation as a collective group of people with a shared sense of identity living together for mutual benefit (from which the State derives legitimacy), as opposed to the ethnic nationalist viewpoint of a nation as a collection of people in cultural conflict with another.

The latter would be, say, the ideology of the likes of the SNP and is my personal position on things.

Obviously there are a few overlaps between the two (eg what is a nation, where does international intervention begin and end, etc) but generally it's down to differing interpretations and attitudes.

Patriotism, to me, is showing a high degree of loyalty to, and undertaking exceptional acts in the best interets of, ones country. But as it's a vague term and easy to manipulate for that reason, it's best to avoid it.

edited 23rd Jun '11 5:34:48 PM by TheBatPencil

Patriotism (or other words for different scales): "I love my tribe/clan/country/region/state/city/whatever and I'm glad I'm part of it."

Nationalism: "I hate everyone else."

Haven't we...uh, disproved that?

You can't disprove semantics. You can only clarify your terms, or if that fails, pound your palm against your forehead and cry "THAT'S NOT WHAT I MEAAAN!!"

I see.

So, where did this idea that Nationalism is hateful and bigoted and whatnot come from? And I'm talking about actual nationalism, like Scottish or Kurdish nationalism, not that "Ah'm goween own a maahtch, cos ah wohnt brih'en tah beeh abawt brih'ish" stuff.

Mostly the second one, really.

edited 23rd Jun '11 5:52:35 PM by DrunkGirlfriend

What Tom said though lacking the positive nature of what he said. This does not mean it is necessarily bad. It just also isn't necessarily good.

It's easy to bash ethnic nationalism when you're in a comfortable first world nation and it only comes in the form of Neo-Nazis bitching about the erosion of White Privilege, but it's a whole other ball game when you're getting kicked in the balls by the Ottomans for speaking your native language. Then, it's a source of hope.

You mean other than the examples you just stated? :P

Most political parties with the word "nationalist" in it, are rather bigoted, so I think it's hardly an unknown definition of the term.

I don't see how Scottish or Kurdish nationalists are bigoted? The SNP think it's unfair that Scottish M Ps get to vote on English issues, and would like to see England get their own parliament. And the Kurds just want an independent Kurdistan. :|

@Sober Irishman: Hm, maybe? Sorry, I just gave my own personal feel about these words. That is very well possible that this is not what they mean.

I think I made my feelings clear in the British Politics thread. More often than not, I think nationalism is divisive, hateful, and jingoistic dickwaving at everyone else's expense. A mild sense of pride in one's country, I have no problem with. I have such a sense myself. But I see nationalism as the extreme end of that feeling.

I, personally, see patriotism as something empty and meaningless. There is no reason to be proud of a country, it's symbols or anything - it is just a piece of soil and nothing else. It's the people who live on that piece of soil that matter. I don't feel any loyalty to my country - I feel loyalty to my people. I would probably fit in The Bat Pencil's definition of a "liberal nationalist". Nationalism is something necessary for a smaller nation to survive and prevent being assimilated or manipulated by a larger one, but it must never become jingoism.

More often than not I see both Patriotism and Nationalism as a bad thing because more often than not they are taken too far.

Having a certain degree of pride in one's country and it's accomplishments is not a bad thing. I feel a certain degree of pride in being British because of things that Britain as a society has achieved. We are a healthy, stable nation with good quality of life for most of our citizens. Our education and healthcare programs, while not the best in the world are still pretty damn good. We have very progressive civil rights and welfare programs. We have laws against hate speech that prevent people like Fred Phelps being allowed into the country.

All in all, we as Britons are safe, happy and well off. I take, not unreasonably, a certain amount of pride in this.

Now I, like Sober Irishman am from Northern Ireland. The thing is I'm in pretty much the opposite position as him since I view Irish Nationalism as utterly pointless. Now historically? Yes I can see why. The Irish felt abused and marginalised by English rule and they were very legitimate grievances.

In Modern times though? What's the point? What good does it do? What benefits would be had by a United Ireland? Aside from Ireland's financial crash, which isn't going to last forever, things to me are pretty much the same on both sides of the border.

In the end, to me, Irish Nationalism strikes me as a complete waste of time because the only difference I see between them is the accent. Which, in a way, means I do in fact support a United Ireland, just one that's united with the rest of Britain as well.