Redirect hunting: Tareme and Tsurime

I was thinking Rounded Eyes for Tareme and Squared Eyes for Tsurime.

Tareme: Droopy Eyes, Tsurime: Catty Eyes

These terms are consistently used in a lot of How To Draw Manga books at least.

Done.

Those sound pretty off and not quite accurate they arnt droopy or catty at all. I would go with Moe Eyes and Tsundere Eyes with the character types that require these.

For sure don't use Rounded or Squared Eyes they are in no way that. The style is the top outer edge be rounded [1]◊ or pointed [2]◊ not making the entire eye round or square. Actual rounded eyes [3]◊ would be an SD trope.

edited 16th Jun '11 6:33:20 PM by Raso

I'd prefer something searchable and in english.

Yeah. Switch the content and the redirects and mention the Japanese word in passing.

What?!

No Eddie, that's not a good idea. That would be like calling a rifle, "boomstick". Or referring to "lasso" (a Spanish word) as "running loop" (the nearest English equivalent).

The Japanese terms are the correct, exact, and accurate terms used.

The English redirects are just approximations, are not exact, and are not the actual term used.

It's not gratuitous Japanese, it's not a fanmade word, it's an actual technical term in the drawing style. This isn't Nakama, (which does have several English equivalents).

It's the same as Zettai Ryouiki. It may be Japanese and incomprehensible to English speakers, but it is the correct term used for the style. So we added a bunch of English redirects that are approximations of the term so people can find the thing even if they don't know the correct term.

I'm all for more English redirects, but renaming the trope is not consistent with typical English usage. Other languages try to create local approximations of foreign words. English traditionally just lets people decide for themselves. If no exact local equivalent arises, English just absorbs the foreign word.

As the difficulty of finding an accurate redirect shows Tareme and Tsurime don't really have an English equivalent. Which isn't surprising, because they are technical terms in a foreign art style.

Technical terms often lack equivalents in foreign languages.

edited 17th Jun '11 7:27:09 AM by Sackett

This doesn't reconcile with the post above mentioning that the terms used in art style books are the English forms.

I've seen lots of different terms used in English books on how to draw anime.

A few use "droopy eyes" and "cat-like eyes".

Others use "soft eyes" and "aggressive eyes".

I saw one that called them "rounded eyes" and "pointy eyes".

The books that use a more dry and technical tone refer to them as "tareme" and "tsurime".

I couldn't say that there is a predominant term in English books on how to draw manga.

edited 17th Jun '11 7:41:20 AM by Sackett

When choosing between dry-technical and anything else, we should go with anything else. The dry technical guys are over at Wikipedia.

Agree with Eddie here. English is the default language of the wiki. Claiming that a term can only be understood in its native language is disingenuous when there is a plain-language English definition available.

I thought we were supposed to use pre-existing terms? We use french for stuff.

Only when the word has entered common usage through cultural osmosis or whatever. I guarantee that Tareme and Tsurime don't fit that bar. As we are not prescriptive, it is not our job to force fandom-specific terms into the general culture.

edited 17th Jun '11 7:56:32 AM by Fighteer

What about stuff like Scatting (I think it was?). AFAIK, this isn't a fandom term, it's an industry term from Japanese animators.

Scatting is widely used slang for a type of singing. There is probably some stuffy name for it, too.

No, IIRC, scatting is the name for it. (Or "scat singing" or just "scat", to be precise.) The best you could do for technical terminology is that it's a "subtrope" of vocal improvisation in general.

edited 17th Jun '11 8:16:17 AM by Jeysie

Okay. People in my family would call it 'lilting'. Anyway, it is a term that came out of common usage to be the term for referring to the thing.

According to Wikipedia, "lilting" is a term that refers to the singing style in a different genre of music. (Basically, scat is when it's jazz music, lilting apparently is when it's Gaelic music.)

For that matter, the word "jazz" itself technically started out as slang for this new-fangled type of music going on, but is now the accepted industry term for that genre.

While I'm not familiar enough with Japanese art to weigh in on this, there is a difference between a fandom term that has a more technical term outside of that, and an actual industry term with no non-slang or non-foreign exact equivalent.

One that comes to mind off the top of my head is "trompe l'oeil", for a specific type of optical illusion illustration.

edited 17th Jun '11 8:29:07 AM by Jeysie

Is anyone contending that these Japanese terms are the common usage for the eye shapes?

Rasso and Sackett certainly appeared to be, insofar that these concepts don't strike me as being common art types to begin with outside of anime/manga art.

edited 17th Jun '11 8:39:22 AM by Jeysie

Yes, we are. Considering that they are the common terms for the eye shapes as seen in anime styled artwork.

Edit: Also, someone want to provide the actual translation for Tareme and Tsurime? I'm not in a place where I can look it up easily or I'd do it.

Edit^2: I also fail to see why we should make the main title terms that are completely arbitrary and non-indicative, especially since its been demonstrated that there are no consistent non-Japanese terminology for these eye shapes.

edited 17th Jun '11 1:13:29 PM by SakurazakiSetsuna

Don't the English words describe the styles well enough that it may help a person be curious enough to want to learn these Japanese words?

No, thats what the description is for.

This is no different than if the styles were described by obscure, yet still technically "english" words.

There are two main ways people will see these pages. Either they already know what the terms are, and thus are looking for the pages on Tsurime and Tareme, or they come across the pages some other way (random hopping, through a wick, being directed in from the outside, whatever), and once they read the page, they now know that the proper terms for these art styles are "Tareme" and "Tsurime". We should not go making up new terms for things that have perfectly valid, existing names simply because we do not like the language they are in.

I would have this same opinion if the terms were French, or German, or whatever. There are plenty of technical terms in the various arts that are used outside their native language, just because this one is relatively new and not from a European language does not mean we should arbitrarily make our own up because we're scared of there being too much Japanese on the Wiki. Tropes and styles originating and primarily used in Japanese works are frequetly going to be best described with Japanese words! There may be equivalent and commonly used English terms, but not always. And this is one of those cases.

Listen, the only people keeping anime in a ghetto are people who insist on referring to everything in Japanese, causing a totally unnecessary translation level. It is exclusionary, elitist snobbery.

Everything we don't want the wiki to be.

Like hell this is part of that. These are the terms for that art style, and art style that originated in Japan and primarily used in Japanese art. I see them used in artist and character designer notes all the time, and have never, ever seen consistent, useful English translations for them.

And if you are so damn worried about the "Ghetto", FIX NAKAMA. Goddamn, just change it. It needs to be changed, its a horrible title for a trope and is everything thats wrong with people who use gratuitous Japanese.

But using proper terms, when those terms happen to be Japanese, is not gratuitous.