Race- Privilege, Relations, Racism, etc.

...God DAMMIT.

The answers to your that is no, no, and no. And I don't think that's what Grain meant. He (She?) said that your perception of other races is due to society itself being somewhat rooted in racism. He's not saying let's tear down all things "white" that someone likes.

edited 2nd Jun '11 12:49:16 AM by Wulf

They lost me. Forgot me. Made you from parts of me. If you're the One, my father's son, what am I supposed to be?

Interesting. I'd suspect Roma *are* more likely to steal then the general population (I don't think they got that reputation at random), which doesn't mean "more likely to steal than not", though I wouldn't be surprised if that didn't hold for other minorities, especially once you control for age and poverty.

I don't think "statistical discrimination" is necessarily immoral - i.e. judging people "by the color of their skin and not the content of their character" if the color of their skin (or their age or the way they dress) can give you some information on how likely they are to have certain characteristics (shoplift, be hard workers, etc.). I also think it's pretty likely that some negative behaviors *are* more common in some groups. But that doesn't mean people always make the right inferences (for example, they might put too much weight on ethnicity as an explanatory factor when others - age, poverty - might work better; there's also confirmation bias and all that); and also, such "statistical discrimination", even if it's perfectly rational, still sucks for those judged unfairly.

Point that somewhere else, or I'll reengage the harmonic tachyon modulator.

Come on guys, not being attracted to certain ethnic groups is not racism. It's like saying 'your taste in music is racist because vast majority of music you like is made by white people' or 'your clothing is racist because you don't wear clothes that black people wear'. It's not about inferirority of one race or another, it's about personal sense of aesthetics. It has nothing to do with society, racism or privilege.

Yes, Roma are more likely to steal. Why? Because their communities think that it's not immoral to cheat on/steal from/beat up non-Roma people. Not any racial reasons for that though, just their fucked up society

edited 2nd Jun '11 1:19:45 AM by nzm1536

"Take your (...) hippy dream world, I'll take reality and earning my happiness with my own efforts" - Barkey

That is the reason that Romani are regarded as thieves. It's not an excuse to treat every Romani person you meet as a probable thief. And you know, the relationship between the Romani and "gadjos" is actually pretty complicated, and there's mutual distrust and hostility at work there. It's not a one-sided thing.

Also... I know we like to be tolerant of opinions here, but can we not have this "I should join the KKK" bullshit? I mean really, I know you were exaggerating, but that's kinda like saying "the only thing stopping me from killing black people is the law and I'm sure I can figure out a way around that". Y'know?

And it's especially silly coming from somebody who appreciates non-white cultures and dislikes othering. I mean, it's not like the KKK are exactly tolerant of appreciation for Asia, they just hate black people more. Apologies if that was your point, Ukonkivi, but even if it was, you're being a bit ridiculous about this, I think.

Actually, extending this post because I had another thought on this: I have mixed feelings about what you say about disliking particular dialects. I mean, in theory, no, I don't think that need be racist. I'm not a huge fan of Brummie accents, but that doesn't mean I have a problem with inhabitants of Birmingham. But on the other hand, suppose some guy came up to me and said my accent was pretty terrible. That would be kind of offensive, wouldn't it? I mean, it'd be rude.

edited 2nd Jun '11 5:48:22 AM by BobbyG

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I don't think interest in Asia and racism are necessarily at odds; between the Indian caste system, Chinese nationalism, and the Japanese thinking they're superior to everybody, there's a good deal of racism in Asia.

Or to phrase it differently, political correctness and anti-racism are much less virulent outside the West. The Chinese, the Pakistani, the Nigerian and the Kenyan all think they should defend their ethnic group's interests, at the expense of foreigners if necessary. Only in the West in the past half-century or so has it become one of the worst forms of Evil to want to further one's ethnic group's interests.

Point that somewhere else, or I'll reengage the harmonic tachyon modulator.

That's as may be, but you wouldn't futher the interests of an Asian ethnic groups by joining a white nationalist movement, would you? It's a silly thing to say.

Anti-racism isn't just about political correctness, anyway. It's entirely possible to genuinely respect other people as human beings regardless of their country of origin.

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I never said anything about joining KKK and if someone said it in this thread, it was probably sarcasm. And I don't treat every Roma as a thief but I think that in this case, to change the stereotype they need to change, not us.

"Take your (...) hippy dream world, I'll take reality and earning my happiness with my own efforts" - Barkey

Ukonkivi said it. I don't think he actually means to join the KKK, I think he was implying that that's what other people think he should do, but it's an absurd thing to say either way.

And no, I don't think the responsibility to change a stereotype should ever rest solely on the minority, because due to the aforementioned privilege, the stereotype will stick around in that case. It's a form of confirmation bias. The stereotype remains because every time a Romani steals something they're just another thieving gypsy. Nobody notices or cares about the Romanies who don't steal from you.

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You'd need to factor in how true the stereotype is to decide what needs to change.

It's unreasonable to expect someone to not believe in a stereotype if that stereotype is accurate. The best you could hope from a reasonable person is for them to adopt an even more accurate stereotype.

(That's not to say that there aren't plenty of wrong stereotypes around)

Point that somewhere else, or I'll reengage the harmonic tachyon modulator.

Yes, it is an obvious absurity. I am a non-Christian, an Asiaphile, a Bisexual, and a little bit on the genderqueer side.

And despite all this, I can get pretty annoyed about a lot of talk about race and "white privilege". I mean look, back that I said "hey, I like what I like, but everyone thinks it is racist in some fashion". To people saying "that's silly, you like what you like, nobody thinks it is racist".

To this again, "oh hey, you aren't fond of Ebonics because of white cultural racism". But if I think about the logic, it's because I find a lot of it's usage to be arrogant, and often anti-intellectual sounding, and just as an individual, I don't like the sound of it. Of course, you could say there might be some racism invovled in a lot of people's dislike for it, wanting to appeal to black-disliking whites, and whatnot, but that doesn't mean you can pin it down on that. There may be some racism invovled in my not liking that sort of thing. Not an amount of racism I'd want to see removed, I'm perfectly comfortable with my fundamental likes and dislikes such as colour(blue and green, being my favourites), music, speech, and so forth.

Also, it can't all be racism, since I happen to think the Jamaican accent/dialect sounds just fine in comparison to American ebonics. It definitely wouldn't rank highly to me, and maybe that's racism, too. But it's certainly not as if there aren't a lot of factors in what I like. It just seems like a terrible way to discredit someone's likes and tastes. I like Ye Olde Butchered Englishe, not Ye New Butchered English. That is, I like uppity and pedantic speech. Ebonics is kind of the opposite of pendantic speech. So from my immediate reasoning as to why I don't like it. The logical assertion from that, would be that liking pendantic, uppity, and archaic speech is racist. Which sounds horridly anti-heritage which is annoying.

Then they say it's understandably offensive and it needs to be dismantled. Making it sound like white culture, high culture, classy materials and so forth, is detrimental to black people and must be dismantled. All or much of the sorts of things I value. Having things I love and enjoy being compared to white cultural racist brainwashing, is pretty annoying and doesn't make me feel like trying to be less racist at all. It doesn't matter who's fault it is. Calling what I like racist does not make me feel very sympathetic.

Erase the things I love and find beautiful, yeah, right.

Look at the message, every possible bad stereotype about anti-racist has practically been invoked. "All these things you don't like, ARE of black people. And if you don't like them, you're a racist twat." Yeah, I'm being given the feeling that racism and white privilege is so horrible right now. Certainly. It's incredibly convincing to feel sympathetic to plight when people tell you something is wrong say "stop having nice things".

I could seriously explode on somebody.

edited 2nd Jun '11 7:01:51 AM by Ukonkivi

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]

We heard you the first dozen thousand times, care to not bring it up? It's never actually important.

There isn't inherent racism in disliking ebonics. ebonics just sounds stupid. there's nothing to pin down on anything. I notice you tend to get too defense far too quickly in these discussions. Perhaps you should slow down?

You always think that, I suggest slowing down once again, I get this feeling you're jumping to conclusion too quickly because you are for some reason obsessed with not wanting to be marked as racist. The more and more I look at your posts the more and more silly it's looking. There is very little racist with liking particular things. overly explaining and emphasizing it makes it look like you're trying to find excuses to hide some racism you may have whether or not you do, but you have not made yourself any favors.

You're being overly defense a little here and jumping to conclusions. No one implies racism because I think Moe is repulsive, saying the Japanese are xenophobic, or visual kei appears stupid. And even if someone did my answer would just be "Meh." This should not bother you so much.

edited 2nd Jun '11 7:51:08 AM by MousaThe14

The Blog The Art

Oh, so I was annoying people with that. Sorry.D: Just one more to get it out of my system. Jewish Homosexual Nazis!... okay. Better. I'm good. I'm good now.

I feel a bit better after readying your post. I think I've calmed down some. I need to go to bed anyway. Night. This should be my last post for a while. And I guess that makes this kind of a spammy post. Sorry.

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]

What measure is racism?

Racism is hating someone because of their race.

Stereotypes ARE NOT RACISM unless they are purposely being said in a way designed to be hateful to another race.

It's not mere hating, prejudice would do, hate is the most extreme and more common. Like sexism is simply negative prejudice base don one's sex regardless of whether or not the hate them or not.

And of course stereotypes are isn't racist in and of itself, stereoypes are mere caracitures and attributes. Stereotyping on the other hand is.

The Blog The Art

Eh, there are a lot of definitions for racism - there are a lot of definition for pretty much any concept which allows some people to claim superiority over others. For some definitions of racism, I probably count as "racist", but I don't lose any sleep over that. Ukonkivi: you should do the same, come on, it's not that bad :)

Point that somewhere else, or I'll reengage the harmonic tachyon modulator.

Racism is discrimination based on race, in any sense.

I feel like I've been kind of the bad guy here, and I'm sorry if I was a little too aggressive sounding earlier. I get kinda annoyed when somebody insists that white privilege doesn't exist because, while the whole problem is that it's something you wouldn't typically notice from a privileged position, if you still insist that it isn't an issue when it's been pointed out to you that seems kinda like being in denial.

But reading back, I'm not certain that everybody in this thread understands the term. It's not white privilege if you treat a black guy differently from a white guy because the black guy's a dick. Nor is it necessarily white privilege if you treat a black guy differently from a white guy because the black guy is black. If that's a deliberate, malicious decision, that's just racism.

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• How, if at all, do you feel your race affects your everyday life?
  • Probably a lot, if I ever cared to take notice. White is the norm, but in a general sense I am very lucky for it.
• Do you believe that white people (or whatever the majority race in your area is) receive privileges simply because of the color of their skin. How much?
  • Sort of. White people are the norm, so there's no particular stereotypes associated with them. I definitely have it better than Aboriginals and many immigrants. Young people of Italian or Greek descent who follow stereotypes aren't likely to face hardship in that they're accepted, but they are generally considered quite silly.
• Do you believe minorities are discriminated against for the same reason? How much?
  • Aboriginals are definitely discriminated against a lot. Others less so. White Australians tend to look better upon immigrants than upon our native inhabitants.
• Do you believe that assimilation of cultures is better than people trying to keep their own?
  • I am pro-diversity, so more or less yes. It's a shame to lose things entirely, though, so it would be nice to keep a record of things before external influences, too.
• Affirmative Action. Yea, Nay? Why or why not?
  • I probably should've read the thread more closely, since I don't even know what this is.

• Why (in my experience, not trying to generalize) do white people often try to insist that they aren't white? I can't count the number of times I've heard "I'm not white, I'm 1/4th English, 1/4th German, 1/4th Scandinavian 1/8th Cherokee, and 1/8th Russian, " as though 4 of 5 of those things aren't considered "white" by the masses. Is it because you have pride for your ancestry, or an attempt to try and differentiate yourself from all those "other" white people? Or something else altogether?
  • I do this, because "white" doesn't adequately describe culture or influence. An Italian is not an Icelandic person. Germans and Austrians are quite similar, but you shall only refer to an Austrian as "German" if you would like to be slapped with a schnitzel. Basically, people don't want to be lumped together with people they may not have much to do with (even if Austrians and Germans have everything to do with one-another, are ethnically homogeneous and share a similar culture, but I guess it might be Mario/Luigi thing). Just like with any other macrorace (now a word), whites have an array of different cultures. There's also the whole thing where organisations like the KKK, Neo-Nazis and skinheads have made white identification sort of problematic. Being proud of being white is really dodgy. Proud of Celtic descent? Not so much. Everyone understands that. Seen Braveheart? 'Course, you get double-standards like that as well. At my uni, there's a Celtic club. Seems innocent enough. But start a Germanic club and you'll draw attention.

I probably see it this way because I'm a colonial white, though. A white person in Europe is relatively close to where their family and their history has always been, more or less.

edited 2nd Jun '11 8:40:41 AM by MadassAlex

Swordsman Troper — Reclaiming The Blade — Watch

Affirmative Action... The way I understand it is part racial/sex quota system, part subconscious/conscious racism/discrimination bypass device, part "sorry we oppressed you for so many years in the past causing your opportunities suck today" card. In short it's a way of making sure there is some sort of diversity in the workplace just in case you'd be more biased to hire a white guy because... I dunno because that's how it's always been. It's an odd and touchy issue.

The Blog The Art

Oh.

Well I've seen this thing at work. I can get behind the theory, but it kinda sucks that sometimes people have to be overqualified if they're in the ethnic majority to get a particular job.

It's a decent idea with mixed execution. I am neither for or against this.

Swordsman Troper — Reclaiming The Blade — Watch

I kind of wish it was only taking pride in being white that got people suspecting you of being a Nazi. I mean, just celebrating English culture can make people suspicious. In England.

I'm not saying it's not a justified response, because celebrating English culture is often exactly what people like the BNP claim to be doing, but all the same, it can be a bit disheartening if you like and want to celebrate some aspects of English culture, but aren't interested in taking pride in it or claiming superiority for it or whatever.

edited 2nd Jun '11 8:54:35 AM by BobbyG

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There are times in history when one civilization is superior to another.

At one time, it was the Persians. Skip forward some, then the Romans. And the later the British Empire. And currently the USA. Who know's who is next?

Point is, yes, there is such a thing as one nation or culture being superior. The difference is that it's not inherently superior. People had to work their way to the top of the civilization tree.

And just how the Greeks and Romans and the Persians climbed there way up, so will another country.

Then they will be able to say they are the most powerful country in the world, and they will be able to reap the rewards of their labor.

That's just how history goes.

Well, do the BNP people actually know all that much about the English culture they claim they are proud of?

If they are at all like their Italian equivalents, I expect that they'd be the ones who would not recognize Lord Byron if he rose from the grave to pee on their shoes...

Cultures are not scalar quantities. They are complex, fuzzy objects. When you say that one is superior to another, the statement is meaningless unless you specify what measure you are adopting.

edited 2nd Jun '11 9:07:49 AM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

• How, if at all, do you feel your race affects your everyday life?

Since I'm white as are most people around me, probably not much, apart from the "not being stereotyped much" thing.

• Do you believe that white people (or whatever the majority race in your area is) receive privileges simply because of the color of their skin. How much?

Yep, we get some privilege in the sense that we're more familiar with the culture, much less likely to be judged by the color of our skin, and less likely to be the target of random hostility. Foreigners and "historical minorities" (African American, Aboriginal Australians, Roms in Europe) have more work to do just to fit in the culture.

• Do you believe minorities are discriminated against for the same reason? How much?

Yup, especially when dealing with "lower class" whites. It also depends of the minorities; blacks and roms are more likely to be discriminated against then people from other Western countries, or from non-Islamic Asian countries.

• Do you believe that assimilation of cultures is better than people trying to keep their own?

Better for the society welcoming those people yes; having a rough social consensus (arranged marriage, whether it's OK to beat up gays, what language to speak, etc.) on a lot of social issues is better then having them split along ethnic lines. "Superficial" cultural differences like food are nice to have around. That goes for immigrants as it does for local minorities whose culture is "failed" (Ghetto African Americans, Roma), but not for countries that already have several functional cultures (Belgium, South Africa).

• Affirmative Action. Yea, Nay? Why or why not?

Not when it's counterproductive, i.e. if Law School A has a race-blind compettitive entrance exam, and Law School B lowers it's entrance standards a bit for Blacks, the result won't be that Law School B is doing blacks a favor, it will be that Black lawyers from Law School B will be considered not as good as white lawyers from school B, or as black lawyers from school A - so well-intentioned Affirmative Action might backfire. Not to mention that it implies more bureaucracy and more lawsuits, etc.

So since affirmative action seems like an expensive way not to change anything, I don't see it as a good use of my tax money.

• Why (in my experience, not trying to generalize) do white people often try to insist that they aren't white? I can't count the number of times I've heard "I'm not white, I'm 1/4th English, 1/4th German, 1/4th Scandinavian 1/8th Cherokee, and 1/8th Russian, " as though 4 of 5 of those things aren't considered "white" by the masses. Is it because you have pride for your ancestry, or an attempt to try and differentiate yourself from all those "other" white people? Or something else altogether?

Because people in general like to be proud of their ancestry and their ethnic group (it's a perfectly normal human instinct), but for some reason (that whole unfortunate "Hitler" incident) it has become one of the Greatest Sins for Whites to do so. So they find a workaround to find the bits of their ancestry they're the most allowed to be proud of - ideally something non-white, but failing that, something white but as exotic as possible can do the job.

Point that somewhere else, or I'll reengage the harmonic tachyon modulator.

Ukonkivi has been greatly distorting my words. Wulf was correct. I do not think (and I did not say) that White and Asian culture should be dismantled, or that it is wrong to appreciate those cultures. Ukonkivi should dismantle his/her feelings that Black Americans are generally inferior to non-Black Americans in terms of physical attractiveness and dialect usage, which exist due to a societal system of advantage based on race and do not imply that Ukonkivi is evil.

edited 2nd Jun '11 10:01:06 AM by Grain

Anime geemu wo shinasai!

@ Carciofus: Well, probably not so much. I think this song says it best:

In practice, I doubt they're doing anything more than flag-waving, really, but they claim to celebrate English culture.

It's my perception, at any rate, that celebrating even many specific "white" cultures is suspicious, or will often be treated as such. That's not the case for Celtic cultures because Irish, Scottish or Welsh nationalism is socially acceptable. German nationalism, well, I don't know about in Germany, but probably not around here.

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