Race- Privilege, Relations, Racism, etc.

Hm, well you know it sorta reminds me of the Cantonese term of "Gweilo". Amongst the Chinese population, they're incredibly ambivalent about it. They don't care and don't think it is offensive. It's just an informal term meaning "white guy" (and as you say, white definition varies by geography). But among the British and other European descent people living in (for instance) Hong Kong, they find it incredibly offensive and the equivalent of the n-bomb.

The Chinese can argue to death that it's not offensive, while the Europeans living there will constantly argue about how offensive it is to them. What's the resolution?

As far as race privilege, relations and so on go, it's about the majority power group just taking on or keeping as much power that they can. It's why we have court systems, a constitution and public education. I would like to think that with children growing up in non-segregated schooling systems with effective professional teachers that they become adults who judge people on an individual basis rather than anything else.

The capacity for racial distinction displayed here feels relevant to this discussion.

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From Post 87:

Dunno if it can be considered a "white" culture (as we saw, the interpretation of the term "white" varies a lot), but Arabic culture is Semitic, not Indo-European. Different origins — linguistically, for example, Arab or Hebrew are related with Phoenician and Maltese, but not (except through loanings, of course) with Indian languages or Farsi or most European languages.

By the way, this is another reason why terms like "whiteness" and "white culture" are a bad idea: people do not seem to even agree on what they are supposed to mean. If one wants to talk about European culture, or about Western culture, why not do just that and avoid the problem?

Also, are Basques, Hungarians and Finns "white"? They certainly are not Indo-European, at least in origin (through of course, by now they probably have quite a bit of Indo-European heritage too).

edited 31st May '11 9:48:19 PM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

Well, that depends on what you mean by "everyday life". I think that being a Westerner is a weighing part of who I am. Sometimes in painful ways as a person who like Eastern culture. And it shouldn't be. I wouldn't have the mental problems now that I do if race didn't affect my life at all.

I believe that we do in some areas and fields of the world. We're not unique about it, though. There are priveges for every race. And the problem is that nobody talk about it that way, they only talk as if white privelege is a unique white horror we have put upon the world. And then tell us we're "shifting the blame" if we try to act like we're not uniquely horrible.

I think that cultures should fuse. But not at the price of losing any gems. That is, there are negative aspects of culture that can die, such as gender roles or something like that. But no language should ever die.

I don't actually have a strong opinion on a affirmative action. So long as it doesn't mean there has to be some kind of racial quota for anything. But I tend to learn against it, for the most part.

We do? I've hardly come across this at all. Well, if it has a racist history like many say, why not abandon it? People of Asian descent are called Asian and people of African descent are called African. Why not call us Europeans? Asian, African... white? One of these things is nothing like the other~. White isn't a very good term for what someone looks like anyway. I mean sure, we're paler than brown people. But there are pale skinned Asians and Africans. Terms like "pale" or "brown" or "dark" are better.

A term like "white" is a bad term that shouldn't be used to describe me or anyone else for that matter. And it certainly shouldn't be an important or noteworthy part of who I am. And if we reach a world where being "white" isn't a noteworthy part of who I am, white privelege wouldn't exist, would it? Whatever, I'm just a pale skinned person. It means nothing, and if it does it shouldnt'.

If something like that is "white privelege", that's just majority privelege. Why single out whites and say things like "white privelege" when such terminology doesn't exist for other people, when it is something that exists in every culture, majority privelege. A little bit of majority privelege is normal and not particularly cruel or wrong.

If "white privelege" just means privelege for Westerners in countries populated largely by native Westerners, I can't say I see what's so hugely wrong with it. A little bit of privelege and inequality is natural. Certainly not something to morally panic about. As far as I can tell.

So if language family is so important, what of Uralic and Altaic languages. I think people have falsely tried to divide things into "East" and "West" too much. And other macrogroups that really shouldn't be brought together. Eastern people are less similar than people think, as as Western and African people. A Japanese atheist, for instance, likely has little in common with another common culture in Asia, Islam. That is, put a group of Atheist cultured Asians and Muslim cultured Asians in one room, and they will likely have little in common culturally. I say Atheist because most "Buddhist" or "Animist" Asian cultures are majority Atheist by this point.

Western or European or Occidental is at least an okay term, though. At least a cultural descriptor whether than some arbitrary descriptor of phenotype.

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@ Carciofus: Whoops, my mistake. I was mislead by the considerable influence of Semitic cultures on Indo-European ones - Christianity in Europe, Islam in India, etc.

@ Ukonkivi: It's not as simple as majority privilege. For example, male privilege exists in spite of the ratio of men to women being roughly equal. White privilege may be found in some countries where whites are outnumbered by other ethnicities, such as South Africa.

And privilege is not cruel, because it's not malicious. As for wrong... well, I don't know, wouldn't you find it rather annoying to be judged for your race all the time?

They have, but relatively speaking, there is a greater similarity between the cultures of Germany and Wales than between Germany and China.

Language families aren't the important thing here. What's important when considering this kind of question is how similar the cultures actually are to one another, and categories like East and West, or Indo-European/Uralic/Semitic/Altaic/Sino-Tibetan are only going to map those similarities approximately, if at all.

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@OP: Interesting set of questions. Props also for neutrally bringing up what has historically been a rather touchy subject here.

A good deal in small ways. I'm white, and my entire neighborhood (with the exception of 1 other family that I know of) isn't; they're mostly Hispanic with a dash of East Indian thrown in. How does this affect me? Well, I don't know any of my neighbors at all; they're polite enough should we happen to cross paths, but after 7 years I couldn't give you any of their names. It's very "us-and-them" in a non-violent, non-hating kind of way. At least I can lay some claim to knowing what a minority must feel like.

Around here, race relations are subtle and complicated. White people actually can have it harder, because my hometown is very liberal *

and there is a lot of "Sorry About Colonialism" that flies around. People have historically had a dim view of the Ukrainian/Slavic enclave that lives in one part of town *

^{not entirely without reason...crime skyrocketed when they collectively moved here in the early 90s, most of it due to Eastern European gang activity}

, though that's finally changing. As I've mentioned before, African-Americans are so rare they've passed "minority" and entered "curiosity" stage; they don't get discriminated against per se but it is kind of rare to see one, so people tend to at least notice.

I'd say it works out about even, all things considered.

With both, you get trade-offs. While people keeping their culture and forming their own little corners of town certainly makes things more diverse, it also breeds a definite "us-and-them" mentality...which more easily crosses into "us-vs-them" territory. I'd say keeping your culture alive in your individual home is good, trying to stake out turf larger than that generally just promotes bad feelings.

I'd like it if my neighborhood was a little more accepting, for example; they throw barbecues, have parties, get together etc. But despite having lived here for 7 years, I've yet to be invited...even though I've welcomed individuals who've come to my door at party time, wanting to know what's going down and if they can get in on it.

Yes, but the current system needs an enema. I certainly can appreciate the goals, but I take issue with the method; it's "top-down" rather than "bottom-up." Racism is a mindset, not a set of rules. The laws as written *

don't favor anyone. What can hold people back is a mindset, and no amount of quotas or "equal-opportunity" requirements can change that. Indeed, the two things I mentioned can actually make it worse; I've heard people say "They get shit and I don't, because of their race. If I did that for white people, it'd be racist and I'd be stopped. Bullshit!"

That kind of hard feeling is one I've felt before, and it's one that easily can cross over into race/class hatred.

@Discussion about privilege: You're all still making it too complicated. It's just "Privilege". Some people have it, some people don't. It's been that way since the dawn of man, and its likely going to continue to be that way until the sun explodes. We can make small adjustments, but trying to alter a basic tenet of human nature is a losing game.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~

•

Not much. I'm very, very white. My skin is so white some have thought I am albino.

•

No. There are some racists of course, but no one is denied public services because of race.

◦

Minorities lose sometimes. They don't have the right to throw a fit just because they're the minority,even though the majority might be wrong. All they can do is keep fighting.

•

Depends. Sometimes assimilation is better, because it's inevitable. The dominant culture eventually will usurp the smaller one. However, some aspects can survive, so it's not a total loss.

I don't know about other countries, but in the USA we don't have an ancient history. Our ancestors came accross the ocean. We don't know what it's like to have a history beyond a few hundred years, so we try and discover where we came from, as if we're trying to meet the culture we never had.

For example, my descendants are Scot-Irish. I don't have a clue what it's like to be Irish. When you get the oppurtunity to talk to someone FROM Ireland, it feels weird because you know that you are from Ireland at some point in the past, yet you have no idea what it's like to be Irish. The reason many Americans point out their heritage is because it's something a little special to us. More so than other nationalities, we are more than one.

We aren't just Irish. We're Scottish as well. And part of our bloodline came from England. Or Germany. Or any other variety of ethinisities.

We're all a little piece of somewhere else, but all together we are American. So pride does have something to do with it. Furthermore, it's to keep others from lumping every white person into one group. I'm not sure if black people like having a strong cultural identity as black skinned people (no offense intended), but most white skinned people try to avoid that.

These stuck out to me enough to make me stop lurking in my own thread. Privilege and discrimination don't necessarily need to be something as blatant as receiving or being denied pubic services- It can be something as simple as being watched more closely in a convenience store because you happen to be black or being automatically thought of as an intelligent, hard worker for being Asian. Or being called in for a job interview because you've got a "white" name like "Fred Smith" and not a "black" one like "Leroy Washington."

They lost me. Forgot me. Made you from parts of me. If you're the One, my father's son, what am I supposed to be?

(Not sure if it's relevant, but just as a point of interest, when I was working shops, while I was never specifically asked to keep an eye on black customers, when a black teenager entered the store, I would inevitably be asked to keep an eye on them in case they nicked something. Not because they were black, obviously, but because they looked shifty. Obviously.)

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We get just as many stereotypes as other groups in Western countries. I think one of the worst things you can possibly pin on "white privelege", is the negative feedback loop that pushes blacks into athletic and "cool" matters instead of academic and "nerdy" matters.

Yes, I'd say that's an unfortunate white privilege, a culture that doesn't push blacks toward academic pursuits. Though that doesn't mean whites are evil. It means that society needs to stop with this pushing anti-intellectualism on blacks. And whites aren't ignorant of this, a lot of us are painfully aware of it and annoyed by it. But everytime we admit this is a problem, we get demonized and called racists.

You don't think that applies to whites at all? People of European descent are midway between all of the stereotypes of people of African and Asian descent. People stereotype Europeans as being less intelligent than Asians, but more intelligent than Africans. This isn't white privilege, it's just stupid stereotypes. Rather, Europeans and Asians alike get all the "nerdy" stereotypes.

Honestly, hardly anybody does this to blacks who are dressed spiffy and respectably. Not necessarily middle class, but not like a thug. While on the other hand, people dressed like a thug, get treated like a thug.

What's unfortunate, is that this bad culture, which I am by the way, NOT equating with African American culture, is associated with blacks. And people expect this. You can call it "white privilege" or whatever, but it needs to stop. As well, people need to stop stereotyping many other subcultures as being a "white" thing. People are always making jokes about these white emo teens and goths and punks and things. You know, because apparently a black goth can't exist, no. That wouldn't be stereotypical enough.

edited 1st Jun '11 11:04:02 PM by Ukonkivi

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It is white privelige. Just because Asian privilege exists (and, IMO, is less pervasive than white privilege in the culture I belong to) doesn't make white privilege a non-issue.

And I don't like the use of "thug" to mean a specific fashion choice, but really, having worked in a shop, black teens would be treated as suspicious when dressed in a manner that was just normal fashion when white kids were wearing it.

edited 1st Jun '11 11:05:00 PM by BobbyG

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Hmmm. That's odd. I live in Hot Springs Arkansas. The South being supposedly the hotbed of modern racism. And we have a pretty sizable black population. And I can't say I've noticed anything like this. It'd certainly be interesting study to do here, to find out if this is the case. Anyone can be my guest to try and figure out how much "white privilege" exists in Hot Springs Arkansas.

edited 1st Jun '11 11:17:28 PM by Ukonkivi

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In the interest of honesty and objectivity, I was working in a small town in Gloucestershire, and you know what small towns are like.

And Gloucestershire itself is like 97% white at the very least, and most of those people who aren't white live in Gloucester.

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Excluding whites from that specific example's not the same thing as thinking they don't get it. Asians get it more. And, while stereotypes themselves are not the same as privilege/discrimination, they are related to it, and can even lead to them.

That's more because those genres of music and those styles are primarily white things. Not entirely, but primarily.

They lost me. Forgot me. Made you from parts of me. If you're the One, my father's son, what am I supposed to be?

Oh come on.

edited 1st Jun '11 11:15:37 PM by Ukonkivi

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How about "most of the people who like those things are white"?

To which I would say, ^{[citation needed]} , but nevertheless, if true it's a fair point.

edited 1st Jun '11 11:19:04 PM by BobbyG

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If I made a statement like that about blacks, people would call it racist, stereotyping white privilege.

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If you were to say "Rap music/"thug culture" and R&B are primarily black things", that would be totally accurate*

and most people wouldn't bat an eye.

It's when you say "Breaking into peoples' houses and stealing the TV are primarily black things" when you're making racist stereotypes.

That said true, it's entirely possible that the goth/punk/rock music in general culture is about 50/50, and I admit I am stereotyping there, but in my own limited, anecdotal experience, most people who fit into the goth/emo/punk subcultures, the people who tend to listen to those genres of music, tend to be white.

edited 1st Jun '11 11:32:43 PM by Wulf

They lost me. Forgot me. Made you from parts of me. If you're the One, my father's son, what am I supposed to be?

My small town is startlingly diverse...its just devoid of white people.

And I stand by what I said earlier: Y'all are making "privilege" too complicated. It isn't solely a factor of race, color, creed, orientation, belief or bubblegum flavor; likely every one of the things I've listed plays a part *

and none of them is solely responsible.

Privilege is like a whore; selling itself to the one with the most resources. And like a whore, it has no loyalty.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~

Errr, isn't breaking the law something that thugs do? You probably should have omitted that "thug" part from there.

And yeah, popular rap music culture is kind of crime glorifying. Obviously, there are a lot of exceptions. But the majority doesn't teach good things. You can say "hey, x rapper isn't a nasty crime glorifying thug.", but that doesn't say much. That makes it sound like the exception to the rule.

And yeah, I've definitely seen people called racist for calling those things primarily black. And I've also seen people get called racist for happening to not like them. Myself included. God I'm bitter at how many times I've been called racist simply for not enjoying ebonics.

Ironically, a lot of these things people do say are "black things", are just the things that sound like they promote "white privelege".

edited 1st Jun '11 11:43:36 PM by Ukonkivi

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Did a person literally ask if you enjoy listening to Ebonics? That would be an odd thing to ask except in very specific circumstances.

edited 1st Jun '11 11:49:33 PM by Grain

Anime geemu wo shinasai!

I don't even have a clue. Though it shouldn't matter.

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@ DS: Well, OK. But Gloucestershire as a whole is basically whiter than Daz detergent, so yeah.

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I don't know what actually happened, but I can imagine how you would be perceived as racist. It's possible that instead of "simply for not enjoying ebonics," you were actively criticizing by declaring it an inferior vernacular, or declaring it unaesthetic. If my hypothesis is accurate, it should matter, because saying "The way Black people talk is ugly," or "The way Black people talk is linguistically inferior," is offensive.

"Simply for not enjoying ebonics," sounds like an understatement creating an illusion of passivity; I find it unlikely that you would be accused of being racist for a passive lack of action.

edited 2nd Jun '11 12:03:28 AM by Grain

Anime geemu wo shinasai!

My friend is a security guard, and he told me the store policy where he was in job training was to watch ethnic minorities, especially the Roma.

Also, one part of privilege is how people have to denounce stereptypes five minutes into meeting someone. Muslims are expected to say, at some point how they disprove of terrorism, half the black ppeople I've spoken to slip how they don't really like rap somewhere in the conversation, etc.