Parents hope to raise genderless child

It's kind of paradoxical how, by allowing their children to choose whatever clothing or toys they want to irrespective of what the world thinks they should, they're somehow 'forcing their politics onto the children'.

edited 22nd May '11 5:42:05 PM by Wicked223

You can't even write racist abuse in excrement on somebody's car without the politically correct brigade jumping down your throat!

@Mr AHR - but there are some choices kids aren't mature enough to make and gender identity is one of them. Kids aren't able to make mature, informed choices on life-changing decisions - that's where parents are expected to make responsible decisions. Isolating your children is not a responsible choice.

And let us pray that come it may (As come it will for a' that)

Yeah. Then they grow out of it.

Uh, no they don't. I personally have longer hair than most girls I know. (Though I never liked pink, I have a feeling it's because I thought it was "girly" and at five years old "girly" was barely a step up from "leech-infested".)

And at everyone else, what's wrong with raising him*

gender neutral? If she happens to fit exactly with one of the conventional gender norms, nobody's stopping him from going with it.

And of course, as is much more likely, if she doesn't fit one of the established gender norms exactly he is likely to be more satisfied being able to stick with her true gender rather than having one forced upon him.

I'm convinced that our modern day analogues to ancient scholars are comedians. -0dd1

Bat Pencil: See Wicked's post above you. Giving them a wider variety of options doesn't really scream isolation to me.

Read my stories!

I like how people are saying that choosing what toys to play with is a "momentous, life-changing decision."

Mr AHR - but there are some choices kids aren't mature enough to make and gender identity is one of them. Kids aren't able to make mature, informed choices on life-changing decisions - that's where parents are expected to make responsible decisions.

Kids don't need to make a mature, informed choice, and this isn't a life-changing decision. Instinct is more powerful than you think, and it's not like they're hanging over their kid saying "the gender you are at five will be your gender FOREVER". You're just so used to the conventional unchanging gender roles you haven't thought of that.

I'm convinced that our modern day analogues to ancient scholars are comedians. -0dd1

@Zoulza: I think that perhaps you and Sober Irisman have two completely different ideas in mind when you say "gender roles".

Raising your kid in a gender-neutral environment is not bad. Neither is assuming that your child is going to be neurotypical and raising them in a gendered environment. The problem is when they start to question their budding sexuality and you aren't supportive.

Any five year old will play with dolls and dress in pink if you let them, because they don't understand the concept of "gender" yet, nor the social connotations involved. Letting them do so, and therefore undergo ridicule for being different is potentially detrimental. And cloistering them is also potentially detrimental. The question is how detrimental it is, and if it's worth it.

I personally don't think that raising a small child to be one way or the other really matters, as long as there's a supportive family to back them up. If they choose to homeschool the kids, they'd better be sure to prepare them well for the real world. If they choose to send the kids to school, they'd better be prepared to let them conform to avoid ridicule.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

Clearly, the biggest obstacle they'll face is figuring out which bathroom to put them in.

You can't even write racist abuse in excrement on somebody's car without the politically correct brigade jumping down your throat!

I would argue the exact opposite of what some have said here. I would argue that being allowed to choose their gender presentations/hobbies etc. will likely have very positive effects for the child.

"Had Mother Nature been a real parent, she would have been in jail for child abuse and murder." -Nick Bostrom

@Wicked: Nah, gendered bathrooms are one of the more sensible gendered things. If it made sense to split bathrooms at all, separating them by which tool you use to pee is probably the best way to do it.

That said, I can't see a good reason why they can't just make twice as many "men's" bathrooms and call them unisex.

I'm convinced that our modern day analogues to ancient scholars are comedians. -0dd1

Wouldn't they actually make female bathrooms the norm? The addition of urinals seems to be a deviation, that isn't required for using, while most things females use (those little garbage cans) are rather mandatory.

edited 22nd May '11 5:50:28 PM by MrAHR

Read my stories!

@Mr AHR - It is isolation when you let them choose not to go to school. That kind of secondary socialisation is a big deal in childhood development, and one that kids aren't able to make big decisions on. Take any kid and give them the choice of going to school or staying at home and doing whatever they want, and the overwhelming majority will pick the latter option. Doesn't make it a good idea.

And let us pray that come it may (As come it will for a' that)

To be fair, it often is. What you play with focuses your interests and the way you think, and can at the very least provide a huge influence on your career path.

DG: Considering how many people are screaming about how this will mess the kid up for life, I'm assuming that the meaning of "gender role" taken here is "only liking/doing things your sex is 'supposed' to like/do," and thus letting a boy play with dolls is the worst thing you could possibly do because boys aren't supposed to like dolls.

And here is where I disagree with irishman on whether or not gender roles are social, because bullshit, there's nothing genetic about liking dolls.

@AHR: Urinals are more convenient for men. No having to worry about opening a stall and making sure the lid is lifted and everything; you can just go in and unzip. Easier to aim at too.

EDIT: To be fair, it often is. What you play with focuses your interests and the way you think, and can at the very least provide a huge influence on your career path.

I used to be a huge fan of dinosaurs when I was a little kid.

I no longer care about dinosaurs much at all. People are generally more interesting to me, which funnily enough is what you would've expected had I played with dolls.

edited 22nd May '11 5:53:24 PM by BlackHumor

I'm convinced that our modern day analogues to ancient scholars are comedians. -0dd1

"and the overwhelming majority will pick the latter option"

That's mainly true when you're older.

"Had Mother Nature been a real parent, she would have been in jail for child abuse and murder." -Nick Bostrom

@Shim: My grandparents were raised far more strictly, I don't think my grandfather would have survived life growing up if he decided he wanted to wear dresses.

@zou 55: EXACTLY! It's not a big fucking deal, buy the kid some blue clothes and give him a transformers toy, s/he doesn't care and you don't have to confuse the damn kid.

Is using "Julian Assange is a Hillary butt plug" an acceptable signature quote?

@Zoulza: I don't really see a whole lot of screaming. Just a bunch of people going "Good job making sure your kid is going to be the bully's favorite". Which, to be fair, is a perfectly rational concern. Especially considering how many kids these days develop all sorts of depressive/anxiety disorders and blame it on bullies.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

Well then why not let them play with toys/go with a career track that actually interests them?

The Bat Pencil: Well, that's completely unrelated to how they are being raised gender-wise.

Read my stories!

Aaand that marks the point where we derail into existentialism-wank.

Or at least, it should.

edited 22nd May '11 5:55:03 PM by BlackHumor

I'm convinced that our modern day analogues to ancient scholars are comedians. -0dd1

Well, yeah, but a urinal is hardly necessary. A men's bathroom without urinals isn't going to cause any problems; a women's bathroom without sanitary bins is. Of course you could just have both.

While what toys you play with might be lifechanging, it's not like it's exactly a choice. I never sat down and thought to myself "I think I will like this toy frog today".

Be not afraid...

Here's an idea for eliminating sexed bathrooms.

edited 22nd May '11 5:55:38 PM by LoveHappiness

"Had Mother Nature been a real parent, she would have been in jail for child abuse and murder." -Nick Bostrom

zoulza: Oh, I'm all for that much. Just saying don't underestimate the massive effect these kinds of things in your developmental stages have on your entire future. Saying "oh X won't matter in the long run" is most often blatantly false when talking about how a child forms habits.

edited 22nd May '11 5:57:39 PM by Pykrete

If it's not a big deal, then it doesn't matter what kind of clothes and toys you buy them, and where are people getting this confusion from? The kids didn't seem that confused from the article.

You can't even write racist abuse in excrement on somebody's car without the politically correct brigade jumping down your throat!