Women are the more beautiful sex

Well, like I said. The secondary sexual characteristics of women are developed breasts and hips.

So : "look like a woman" was a shorthand for "have a figure with noticeably developed secondary sexual characteristics". Not "if you don't have those you look like a man/a freak".

Plus, it's ironic you bring up eating disorders, when part of the reason I made my comment to begin with is that I'm kind of tired of the media pretending that the ideal woman is one that's overly thin and has almost no curves, despite the fact that noticeable breasts, hips, and a belly are female secondary sexual characteristics. So seeing one of the typical media-glorified thin, non-curvy women held up by a poster as being the "ideal" kind of bugged me.

Plus, again, we're talking about the "ideal" here, as in the mythical absolutely-perfect-looking woman. The world's full of plenty of non-perfect women who are still quite hot, attractive, or pretty.

(It would be rather nice to not have to write mile-long posts that explicitly spell out every single concept I intend in absolute detail to prevent people seeming to feel a need to interpret what I say in the absolute worst way possible. (And then someone would probably throw a TL;DR at me if I did write such lengthy posts.))

edited 22nd May '11 11:56:10 PM by Jeysie

Apparently I am adorable, but my GF is my #1 Groupie. (Avatar by Dreki-K)

The secondary sexual characteristics of women are developed breasts and hips.

"Developed" is kind of a vague term. The woman in question had developed breasts and hips in comparison to a man. Unless you're trying to quantify "femaleness" as something that increases with the increased presence of estrogen (meaning, a woman with wider hips and bigger breasts is somehow more female or feminine than the woman whose picture Black Humor posted), how developed these are is meaningless.

So : "look like a woman" was a shorthand for "have a figure with noticeably developed secondary sexual characteristics". Not "if you don't have those you look like a man/a freak".

Quoting you:

Plus, it's ironic you bring up eating disorders, when part of the reason I made my comment to begin with is that I'm kind of tired of the media pretending that the ideal woman is one that's overly thin and has almost no curves, despite the fact that noticeable breasts, hips, and a belly are female secondary sexual characteristics. So seeing one of the typical media-glorified thin, non-curvy women held up by a poster as being the "ideal" kind of bugged me.

I don't recall the media glorifying the overly thin. From my admittedly superficial acquaintance with current media trends, it seems that curvy women such as Beyonce are considered better looking than those like Paris Hilton, who are constantly reviled for their low weight. The reason why I bring up eating disorders is that having a high hips-to-waist ratio is not exclusive to thin women. Plenty of thickly built or overweight women also do not have the coveted curvy figure.

To illustrate, this lady◊ is both curvier and thinner than this one.◊

edited 23rd May '11 12:43:14 AM by kashchei

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?

Not really. As in, not pettanko or having barely-curved hips.

And, you know, there's a reason why I linked boyish figure in my initial posts: to point out I was using an established term, not a personal one.

Wow, we must not be watching the same media, then. The one where women who are larger than an 8 are considered fat, and a woman gaining a whole 5 pounds has every popular magazine crying about how she's getting fat? The one where every woman who actually has noticeable curves (or ample boobs that are actually combined with a larger waist rather than a stick-thin one) tends to be cast as the Hollywood Pudgy?

Point? Seeing as how, again:

edited 23rd May '11 12:46:02 AM by Jeysie

Apparently I am adorable, but my GF is my #1 Groupie. (Avatar by Dreki-K)

Unless they've gotten into quarter-tonner territory, B.S.. And, if you pile enough pounds on anyone, gender's going to be hard to discern in any event.

That said, I'm with Jeysie on this one. Women cast as "fat" in Hollywood are what medical science refers to as "Height-Weight Proportionate". It's bullshit.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~

I might be mistaken, but I didn't think you got many 'curvy' women who were thin. Breasts being mainly fat deposits, and all that.

Be not afraid...

It's a term that exists, alright, but they all seem to have both tits and hips, so I don't know what point you're trying to make other than there being a vast number of people who think that adult women look like boys unless they're a C cup or larger.

"Point? Seeing as how, again:"

The point was me elucidating why I mentioned eating disorders. Most women who weren't built with an hourglass figure are shit out of luck, but whereas a slim girl knows that her only viable path to bigger hips is through hormone treatment, a thicker one might delude herself into thinking that enough dieting and exercising will give her the figure that was genetically never meant for her.

"The one where every woman who actually has noticeable curves (or ample boobs that are actually combined with a larger waist rather than a stick-thin one) tends to be cast as the Hollywood Pudgy?"

Don't exaggerate. The sex symbols of our age are Jennifer Lopez, Britney Spears, Beyonce, and Monica Bellucci, not Nicole Richie or anorexic!Lindsey Lohan. Yes, there are chubby women in Hollywood whose fatness is greatly exaggerated, but they legitimately are overweight.

"Unless they've gotten into quarter-tonner territory, B.S.."

The second picture I posted, which was pretty damn uncurvy, can't be more than 20lbs overweight, if that.

edited 23rd May '11 1:00:46 AM by kashchei

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?

...And the debate devolves into quibbling over details. I'm going to get some shut-eye.

Good luck, Jeysie.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~

@kashchei

Because that's the established term for it. I suppose a possible more accurate term would be "prepubescent-figured", although they're obviously not as undeveloped as children really are, and small-chested/skinny-hipped women still look adult in other ways.

And, you still don't get that the reason I said you're missing my point is that eating disorders crop up when a person feels they need to look a certain way just to be baseline attractive. Which is why I stated that ideal =/= baseline attractive. (I mean, the entire point of ideal is that it's... ideal. As in, absolute perfection, which by definition nobody's gonna be able to reach.)

And uh, I'm not exaggerating in the slightest. I have seen Britney, Beyonce, and Monica all called "fat" or "pudgy" by the media on more than one occasion, actually. (I don't know if the media considers Lopez fat, but that's mainly because they're too busy talking about her butt to comment much on the rest of her.)

Apparently I am adorable, but my GF is my #1 Groupie. (Avatar by Dreki-K)

"I suppose a possible more accurate term would be "prepubescent-figured", although they're obviously not as undeveloped as children really are, and small-chested/skinny-hipped women still look adult in other ways."

/headdesk

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?

Considering you're the one being deliberately obtuse here, you have nobody to blame but yourself if you're headdesking. I've already quite clearly explained what my point was, so if you're going to be a dick about semantics, then feel free to argue with someone else.

edited 23rd May '11 1:13:27 AM by Jeysie

Apparently I am adorable, but my GF is my #1 Groupie. (Avatar by Dreki-K)

I think you need to look up what prepubescent means before you go on embarrassing yourself further.

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?

... prepubescent in girls means having little to no breasts or hips, and a lack of pubic hair. Seeing as puberty is defined as the time when people gain these secondary sexual characteristics, I'm not entirely sure what the headdesking is about.

Be not afraid...

I'm not sure how he would be embarrassing himself, as a lack of clearly defined breasts or wider birthing hips can make a woman's figure look prepubescent.

Prepubescent means before puberty. Having any secondary sex characteristics whatsoever means that one is pubescent or post-pubescent. The width of one's hips and the size of one's breasts, barring a legitimate lack of development due to hormonal imbalances and improper nutrition, are determined by your genes. You are "developed" when your body reaches its adult optimum, not when Jeysie finds you fuckable.

^ I have yet to see a single adult woman in my life who lacks clearly defined breasts.

edited 23rd May '11 1:36:31 AM by kashchei

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?

Lucky :P

"although they're obviously not as undeveloped as children really are" - Jeysie

She already said that even flatchested women are still somewhat developed and therefore not exactly prepubescent.

Be not afraid...

So why use the term prepubescent at all? And why imply underdevelopment when it's, in most cases, a question of build rather than development?

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?

It's OK, considering kashchei still also hasn't cottoned on that my notion of ideal =/= the minimum for me to consider someone "fuckable", I'm not surprised at the confusion over the nuances of this either.

edited 23rd May '11 1:43:34 AM by Jeysie

Apparently I am adorable, but my GF is my #1 Groupie. (Avatar by Dreki-K)

Your notion of "nuance" is rather reminiscent of people who use Mexican as an umbrella term for Hispanic.

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?

A very tiny minority of women actually have curves. For most women, putting on weight just turns them into shapeless blobs.

You know, Jeysie, you can defend your position all you want, but I don't think it's unreasonable for people to get offended by your assertion that women with small hips or breasts don't look like women.

As a girl without any curves, I find all this "real women have curves" stuff disheartening. You may not mean it literally, but the implications are still there.

This, so much.

I already thoroughly explained what I meant by what I said. So, while it's not unreasonable for people to get offended by such an assertion, it's also not the assertion I was actually making.

What part of "ideal =/= baseline attractive" are people having trouble comprehending as English, exactly?

I said that ideal women have curves. The entire point of ideals is that they're not real, they're unrealistically perfect fantasies.

(I mean, quite frankly, my notion of the ideal woman also includes short curly red hair, green eyes, freckles, and glasses. I am not in any way trying to imply that I'm only satisfied with ideal women or that I think only ideal woman are attractive.)

Like I said, it'd be nice if people didn't make up things I didn't say to get mad at. If you're gonna get mad at me, at least get mad at what I actually did say.

Plus I find it fucking ridiculous that I'm getting jumped on when my post was supposed to be a 100% positive rejection of the media's notion that super-thin women are ideal and hot. Is agreeing that woman are only attractive when they starve themselves skinny supposed to be the correct thing to say and I missed it?

edited 24th May '11 10:20:26 AM by Jeysie

Apparently I am adorable, but my GF is my #1 Groupie. (Avatar by Dreki-K)

You're getting "jumped on" because your idea of being positive and encouraging, wait for it, denigrates women. If you don't mean to be offensive, I suggest taking greater care with your wording.

edited 24th May '11 1:47:07 PM by kashchei

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?

Yeah, I guess it's so denigrating to women to look at BH's idea of a typical media woman who's skinny and has almost no breasts and hips, and say I prefer the more typical-sized woman who's got some meat on her and has a belly, average-sized breasts (B-C), has pudgy hips, etc.

Clearly what I should have done is agreed that yeah, BH's pic is totally the ideal woman, because it's good to encourage girls to have to starve themselves to fit the super-thin ideal. And to think of themselves as fat and unattractive if they happened to develop a set of prominent secondary sex characteristics.

But no, I'm so horrible and denigrating to women. Like I said, so fucking ridiculous.

edited 24th May '11 2:12:31 PM by Jeysie

Apparently I am adorable, but my GF is my #1 Groupie. (Avatar by Dreki-K)