Philly police arrest man carrying.

That's what it should be.

• Do the act.
• Get caught.
• Inform the cop that it's legal.
• Be asked to kneel, the degrading drill. Comply for now.
• Remind the cop that you do not consent to any sort of search or seizure, to make sure no action of yours is construed as waiving your 4Amendment Rights.
• He proceeds to search you anyway (inadmissible). You'll sue him later. You're hauled to court, or the PD, or wherever. The carry is deemed to be legal, PD is forced to change procedure, either by public disclosure or by a lawsuit.

The (perfectly legitimate) strategy of civil rights activists is well-known. Smart cops apply procedure and avoid antagonizing the activist. The law/practice gets challenged and probably overturned. He stays out of that mess. The guy in the video was no smart cop, and the activist didn't help him act smart either. At worst, you're Breaking One Law At A Time, and making sure the penalties are minor.

The cop ain't gonna kill you if you play it cool, and if it's the procedure you want to have abolished, goading the cop into acting out of procedure out of anger ain't gonna help your case at all.

edited 18th May '11 1:21:18 PM by SavageHeathen

Agreed.

Both cops and activists ought to play it smarter on those cases.

Both cop and activist know what the other guy is up to in that case. Guy wants to challenge procedure or law. Follow procedure, arrest, haul to court, be done with it. On part of the activist, unneccessary belligerence is useless/harmful if you want to kill an illegal procedure.

The degree of belligerence/unhelpfulness sometimes increases when you're trying to overturn an unconstitutional law. Still, it would be better to tell the cop so he doesn't take it personally. ''This is civil disobedience. A challenge case. Do what you've gotta do, let's get this over with civilly."

Being a dick helps neither party on those kinda open/shut cases.

edited 18th May '11 2:55:02 PM by SavageHeathen

If the cop cant search you, how is he gonna know you have documents?

Whats stopping a guy from not carrying one and just going "Oh I have it in my pocket, no I wont show you, no you cant search me!"

There's a difference between getting a guy's documents from a pocket and searching him fully (all pockets, etc).

There's reason to grab the documents. Since he might well be a perfectly law-abiding citizen not even doing anything questionable, there's no reason to run through all his stuff.

So...the cop has to get the documents on the first try?

The guy is supposed to tell him where the documents are. If he wants to cover his ass, he'll instruct the cop as to where the documents are, and he'll ALSO object to any additional search. (If you don't object to a search, your actions can be construed as consent, which makes it reasonable by definition)

As long as your objection is noted, you don't need to keep objecting, unless you're asked again.

edited 18th May '11 3:09:55 PM by SavageHeathen

Everyone keeps complaining about their 'rights' and how the authority figure keep infringing on them - the only reason people are free to exercise their rights is that police are there to enforce them. If you went somewhere that had no police force, you think you'd have the right to free speech?

Your 'rights' are only there because of the laws saying they are.

That depends on your theories regarding rights, and the defense thereof.

Many do not consider the police, or the laws intrinsic to that.

Course, good luck defending your intrinsic right to free speech if you're in a completely lawless society without someone shooting you with a high powered rifle.

Well, in that case you do have the right to it. It's just that, in that particular society, they also have the right to shoot you. And walk away.

Oh man, some of the things said in this thread are comedy gold!

Savage, man, you should do stand-up; you are hilarious man. Not quite Mitch Hedberg funny, but at least Gabriel Iglesias level funny.

The fact that law enforcement is necessary shouldn't be used as an excuse to let the enforcers get away with whatever they want, though. Systemic corruption must be addressed, not swept under the rug or shrugged off as a necessary evil.

edited 18th May '11 5:10:42 PM by Karkadinn

The thing is, in this situation telling the guy to go to his knees was in fact appropriate. It's a safety measure that, from the perspective of a cop, makes sense. We're not going to nervously read his paperwork with one eye looking at him in case he decides to play quickdraw.

Yes, there are corrupt cops, who need to be fired. There are cops who are assholes, who need to be disciplined, but the safety practices involved are not broken.

I went to bed earlier, but really? Being forced to kneel because you have a loaded firearm is somehow rape?

Savage: What you are saying is somewhat in line with what would happen. But the individual would be in a position to where he couldn't hurt the cop, and the cop is supposed to say "Do you have your papers on you?" he says "Yes, they are in my right back pocket." "Now I'm going to reach in there and get your papers, is that ok?" "Yes" -reaches in, reads them, clears him as legal, and proceeds to cuff him, give the papers back, and apologize/thank him for the cooperation-

The reason lots of cops are dicks is because we get really tired of people arguing with us and lying to us for 12 hours a day. We aren't in the mood to play 20 questions with every person we have to talk to, it gets pretty damn old pretty damn fast.

edited 18th May '11 6:05:22 PM by Barkey

What I find funny is that everyone's doing exactly what we shouldn't be doing; using a deplorable incident between two morons (the cops and the Open Carry guy) and spinning it into generalities *

@Barkey: I can see that. I used to work security, basically its the same thing; people whining, wheedling, arguing, and generally being douchewads for 10 hours a day until it's hard to give anyone the benefit of the doubt...even if they might deserve it.

Moral of the story there, I suppose, is "treat police with respect until they give you a reason not to, and try to remember that they're people too."

edited 18th May '11 6:08:04 PM by drunkscriblerian

Lets keep the thread going shall we?
Police fails at destroying SD card of random passerby, but destroys phone
Well............ I guess I for one are still wondering why there has not been a purge in the police, the issue of officers harassing people have been known for ages.

But why did the guy have a Glock 21?

Apparently he lived in a bad part of town.