Does a such thing as a Mongoloid, Caucasoid, or Negroid skull exist?

Then I think we all do fetishizing to things we like.

Funny how thousands upon thousands of people are fixated upon how horrible Asian and other fetishism is.

I'm a white person with a white girl fetish, that's fascinating.

I am analyzing what's going on in my mind, by the way. Though I'm a bit confused as to the other parts of what you are saying. You blame me of being incoherent? I have no idea what you were just saying, for the large part. And telling someone to "think" and "use your head" isn't near as close and trying to say "you should try to find a good vantage point to try to compare exactly what you are feeling to.

You know, if you want to make such a claim that I am fetishizing things, you should take out a quote and explain why you think that is so, not just repeat the same things in a rhetoric. You're really not explaining anything. You've just went from claiming that I'm exotifying people, to fetishizing them.

edited 16th May '11 11:08:10 PM by Ukonkivi

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]

Life isn't fair, no. But you don't have to treat it as a popularity contest.

And unless you like the former because they're white, or dislike the latter because they're black, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Race isn't everything.

Because there are sufficient numbers of non-white artists that such a thing would likely indicate racist preference for white people.

Although the complainer might be oversensitive.

Because those parts, very unfortunately, have been widely appropriated by racist bigots.

Because it means treating real people like fantasy creatures and concentrating on characteristics that are different at the expense of those that are the same, effectively dehumanising them and perpetuating things like the East-West divide.

I don't know if I'd feel confident blanket describing all othering as inherently bad, but I do think it's generally unhealthy for all concerned. It's a major cause of distrust and misunderstanding, I think.

While I am aware that Japan is pretty culturally conservative and largely ethnically homogenous, I find this very hard to believe.

It's also a false dichotomy (just because Japan is not a perfect paradise does not make it a racist hellhole), but you probably knew that.

This, again, only makes sense if all Japanese people are extremely racist - which sounds like a racist claim itself, to me.

So we're back to "you need to stop caring so much what other people think."

I think the fact that you seem to be so obsessed with this kind of thing probably creates a bad impression.

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Yes, we fetishize things.

Admitting that you fetishize Japan is the first step, which you've done it seems.

Next, ask yourself why.

After that, ask yourself why you are concerned with trolls, and why you actually believe what they say.

Finally, figure out why you keep going back to places that are telling you these things.

Also, as Bobby ninja'ed, the fact that you're so obsessed with the subject is probably why people are concerned. If you see a man with a bottle of Southern Comfort, you think he's having a good time. If that man goes on to say "I'm not an alcoholic, I swear" you immediately start to think he's an alcoholic. Suspiciously Specific Denial is the trope I think.

edited 16th May '11 11:11:41 PM by Diamonnes

My name is Cu Chulainn. Beside the raging sea I am left to moan. Sorrow I am, for I brought down my only son.

The damage that the troll culture can do.

Then that is definitely not what I am doing and I do appreciate being blamed of that, Diamonnes. In fact, you're starting to remind me of those trolls I need to get away from. Perhaps I should stay away from the internet in general.

Oh God, you don't know how good it feels to hear that.

First step to recovery, eh? No. Just no.

First off, I never admitted to anything. I'm asking for clarity. And you're purposely being obtuse about the whole thing.

You mean like you?

First off, I don't fetishize Japan. Unless by "fetishize", you're butchering the word past worth meaning. Secondly, I 'like', not fetishize Japan, because I happen to really enjoy the way the language sounds. It is difficult to descibe why exactly one likes a language psychologically, much as it is difficult to explain one's sexuality and favourite colour. Personally, I think it's because I did at least mysticize Chinese hanzi when I was younger. Partially because I thought it was fascinating that China had ancient traditions like martial arts and I had been influenced by media that made ancient hanzi seem magical, and I liked magic and fantasy. Same with Runic, both are considered sacred and "magical" writing systems, on some level. So the fact that written Japanese includes it, helps. I also like, unique to Japan, kana(katakana/hiragana), because it makes a nice pair of training wheels for that writing system I always wanted to know as a kid. I also like how cute and round Hiragana is. I seem to like round things more than straight things, which is probably the same reason I like the colour blue over dark, yet bright yet. I like things which seem calming and approachable.

Language is probably the biggest thing I like about Japan. I happen to, if you're going to butcher the word, "fetishize"(not really, if you argue this against me, I swear), snowlands. They do indeed, and maybe this is fetishize them, because fetishize means "apply magical qualities to".

Actually, maybe I do "fetishize" Japan, on some level, maybe not the kind you're thinking of, but with "magic", as I am a Pagan type. And I do like and tend to at least agnostically believe in Shinto and other Animistic faiths, and hope it to be true. Of course, I think the whole world, by that notion, is filled with spirts, so that would mean I'm fetishizing the entire world. Shinto is more interesting to me than Yoruba, though. I do really like and romanticize the game Okami, so maybe that in itself counts as fetishizing Japan. Considering that believing and liking Shinto itself counts as fetishizing Japan.

I am concerned with them, because they are a wall. The more plentiful, the more I see what should be as nonexistant and polluted. Well, that depends on what you mean by "concerned". Partially it might be a lack of self esteem. I'm not sure it's that I fully believe what they have to say, but I doubt myself enough that it's painful and distracting. Why I have intrusive thoughts, I've heard that is a thing of neurological difference, but if I could explain it otherwise, it feels as if my mind is a battlefield, and interprets things as conquering and being conquered, in terms of memes and thoughts and ideas. And some part of my mind, thinks ignoring means being conquered, and tells me to go out and conquers, and put my mind forth onto others, instead of having my mind be allowed to be put forth on. Though the further I try to understand this rabbit hole, without simply relying on saying it is neurological, certainly the harder it becomes. This is actually harder to me than explaining my own sexuality. Some part of my brain, way back away from my thinking concious, puts my mind and the memes of all society on the same level, and sees things in black and white, like a tug-of-war, and wants to see conclusion, not difference between me and the memes. That sounds incoherent but that is just how difficult it is to actually get some sense of my own mind like that. And I feel like I'm reaching pretty far back into my subconcious just to get this.

Sometimes, I think I return because it seems surreal, the difference. It's a bit hard to believe, so I go back sometimes, I think, because I want to confirm for myself the way things are, I want to defeat a meme and have closure, even if it is impossible, I have some inkling of hope things will change and be better, and the terrible assumptions I have made are incorrect. And furthermore, since it has followed me around to every corner of the internet, and I haven't gone in search of it(indeed, I avoid such places many times, and am continually disappointed that each new forum disturbs me in some way, and then I leave, I've been to hundreds of fora at this point in search of a good one), it makes me despair and think a bit, maybe this is the underbelly of nearly each human mind. It feels lonely. And I start to think, if I am affected this much, surely I make a ripple in the world around me. And I start to feel that maybe ignoring my ideological enemy is to cower into a corner and wait to be stabbed. And instead, I should always be in direct conflict until I have more land.

What is said, in books, in blogs, on tv, will be kept record of, many times. These things write a record on the lasting human history, these are the things that people thought, there are the things which mattered. In the annals of time and meme in humans, which will be allowed to be left, the meme that Westerners who like Eastern cultures are silly, or beautiful? I can ignore all and keep to myself and my loves, and the world will dispove it's worth. And all record and memory will only be able to say, "this was a pathetic weeaboo who challenged the East and the West". Just as it will always remain, what Martin Heidegger, racially meant. And will put a ripple in the memes. He has left an image of meaning the memetic make-up of all humanity, as a German Nazi, great philosopher, influence by Eastern philosophy and traveler to Asia, a symbol to people of what a racist white man did. And he will always be a notable figure to proud whites.

edited 17th May '11 1:16:02 AM by Ukonkivi

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]

....

Yep. Calling me a troll is the best solution.

Also, you're confusing me, a poorly-spoken prick teenager, with Bobby, the eloquent and intelligent and typically very kind mod.

Get psychological help. That's all.

edited 16th May '11 11:50:26 PM by Diamonnes

My name is Cu Chulainn. Beside the raging sea I am left to moan. Sorrow I am, for I brought down my only son.

Well you're behaving like a troll about the fetishization topic.

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]

Ukonkivi, I think you are over-reacting to Diamonnes. He is not trolling, he is telling you it as he sees it.

Be not afraid...

He sees it pretty badly, then.:P

The least you can do when trying to argue that someone is fetishizing and othering/exotifying, is give a reason. Instead of saying "yep, you're fetishizing, see, you even admitted to it!".

By the way, Bobby is definitely nice.<3

People often react, though, based upon what they've learned to expect from previous experiences.

edited 17th May '11 12:06:17 AM by Ukonkivi

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]

Well, I think in forensic science such "distinctions" exist at least to help identify bodies to a degree. There are recurring physiological and anatomical characteristics that can point a general direction as to what kind of body such a skull may belong to. They do that all the time with archaeological evidence. For example, Asian people typically have shovel-shaped top front teeth, but that is not to say other people do not posses such dental characteristics. It's just probability that such a skull belongs to an Asian person.

In absolute terms, no. There is no difference between skulls.

My God, we're on topic again. That's fantastic.

Hmmm, that's an assessment that makes sense. It does make our terms for race seem rather silly, though.

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]

I dedicated a lot of my life to understanding Japanese culture better.

As opposed to any and every other culture.

I happen to really enjoy the way the language sounds. It is difficult to descibe why exactly one likes a language psychologically, much as it is difficult to explain one's sexuality and favourite colour. Personally, I think it's because I did at least mysticize Chinese hanzi when I was younger. Partially because I thought it was fascinating that China had ancient traditions like martial arts and I had been influenced by media that made ancient hanzi seem magical, and I liked magic and fantasy. Same with Runic, both are considered sacred and "magical" writing systems, on some level. So the fact that written Japanese includes it, helps. I also like, unique to Japan, kana(katakana/hiragana), because it makes a nice pair of training wheels for that writing system I always wanted to know as a kid. I also like how cute and round Hiragana is. I seem to like round things more than straight things, which is probably the same reason I like the colour blue over dark, yet bright yet. I like things which seem calming and approachable.

my Japanophilic dreams

Well, I do like northern cultures more. And wanting to see it overlap and get along has given me some biases probably at least bordering on bigotry

I really want to scream "BAM! RIGHT THERE!" But that would be childish and oh who the fuck am I kidding. You said it yourself.

You also seem to be equating "troll" with "anyone who doesn't agree with me and/or sugar coat things." I may have the subtlety of a morning star to the face, but that doesn't mean I'm trollin'.

edited 17th May '11 12:24:45 AM by Diamonnes

My name is Cu Chulainn. Beside the raging sea I am left to moan. Sorrow I am, for I brought down my only son.

So wait, there's something wrong with wanting to spend a lot of time reading about a culture, particularly the culture your Sister City is related to? You have to like a certain quota of different cultures?

That's not fetishism. You know, even most high schools don't study African culture. And there are entire classes called Japanese studies. There's nothing wrong or odd or out about studying one particularly culture before others. Many people who write books about countries like Mongolia do just this.

I don't know about childish, but your examples you've chose to claim I'm fetishizing and exotifying doesn't seem to reasonably do that at all. I have to wonder about your stance on exotification and fetishism is, too. It doesn't appear to be a good one. If not, it seems to be a gross misusage of the words. Having a preference about what country you want to learn about and learn the language of is not anything close to fetishism. It is only possible to learn so many languages in one's live. If one happens to want to learn one before others, that is not fetishism.

edited 17th May '11 12:23:58 AM by Ukonkivi

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]

To be fair, I think you're fetishizing Japanese culture too, I've just not said anything about it because I don't think you'll listen.

Hey look, you're not going to listen.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

Sigh...

See, I was right, almost everyone opposes liking Eastern cultures if you're a Westerner.

edited 17th May '11 12:25:55 AM by Ukonkivi

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]

Look, 'Japanophilic dreams' does sound like you're fetishizing it.

Be not afraid...

Nobody opposes you liking it. People just don't like it if you take Eastern culture to be the epitome that all other cultures should strive towards.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

I was describing the matter in ways that other people have decided to describe me.

Kind of like how I've called myself a "pathetic weeaboo faggot", parroting what other people have said about me.

Those "dream", are to see my homestay family again and become better at Japanese language. Not go to Japan and get a Japanese wife or something like that.

And I said anything remotely like that? No, I didn't. But people will always say things like this if you say something nice about something from an Asian country and you're not Asian.

edited 17th May '11 12:29:00 AM by Ukonkivi

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]

Basically... Yes.

If you are studying one culture to the exclusion of others, you're definitely showing some severe favouritism.

See, I was right, almost everyone opposes liking Eastern cultures if you're a Westerner.

Hey look everyone, racism! Tee-hee!

edited 17th May '11 12:29:32 AM by Diamonnes

My name is Cu Chulainn. Beside the raging sea I am left to moan. Sorrow I am, for I brought down my only son.

Well, they are.

[1] This facsimile operated in part by synAC.

Basically what yes?

And that's not severe favouritism, that's simply favouritism. Also, that era is over, because I caved in to people like you saying things like this.

I think it's ironic that a lot of people think that the "Hispanic" race idea is the silliest and unfounded term that the United States has.

But at least it's based in something that actually exists. Cultural difference. Dark people don't necessarily have something in common other than a history of opposition and the United States and maybe a resistance to the sun. But saying someone is Hispanic culturally actually makes sense if they are.

edited 17th May '11 12:33:33 AM by Ukonkivi

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]

Nobody here does think that liking Japan is a bad thing. Just you, apparently. When you bring this 'dilemma' you're in up so often, it seems a little obsessive. Which then leads people to think you're exotifying it.

Be not afraid...

@Dia: I wouldn't bother. He's not going to listen, and you're just wasting your time.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

Saying things like what? Maybe take a moment to consider what I've said.

I didn't say it was bad to fetishize a culture, did I?

No. Gods know I fetishize the Celts and the Anglo-Saxons and modern British Isles.

What I DID say was that you need to understand that you do in fact do this.

Denial is bad for the mind, IIRC.

Perhaps if you stop looking for enemies, you'll find some allies.

DG: He hasn't paid attention to anything anyone has said since I joined this site, so I know. Debate with stances like this is merely an exercise for my mind. Something to keep me occupied. 'S all good. :D

edited 17th May '11 12:34:46 AM by Diamonnes

My name is Cu Chulainn. Beside the raging sea I am left to moan. Sorrow I am, for I brought down my only son.

... I see.

I'm used to people making it into a bad thing. Admittedly, I do the same for the Celts.

I am obsessed with the dilemma, I'd say. Which is related to Asia because that's part of what the dilemma is about.

Though that is because I'm having a hard time liking something even though it is Asian, when I happen to like various Asian and European things both. Not struggling to like something other than something that is Asian. I've always liked plenty of European and Asian things. I focused on Japanese studies for a time, partially because of the Sister City program. It didn't really imply a sense of thinking Japan was superior or that other cultures were boring or anything. I just wanted to tackle it, and enjoyed it, and realized that even just tackling learning about one culture can take many, many years. One could argue it is impossible to truly know a single culture within a lifetime.

It's ironic, by the way, that y'all are blaming me of not listening and not heeding the opinions of others, when the very theme of this topic seems to have become that I do this too much.

Y'all... have to be joking. This is too silly to take serious what you're saying right here.

edited 17th May '11 12:58:48 AM by Ukonkivi

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]