British Politics Thread

Here is the thing: The electorate has a pretty short memory. In politics, the decision which have a long term effect will be the ones which matter. And Brexit will have a long term effect, while the Tuition fees will eventually be blamed on the tories alone, along with the downfall of the NHS.

Mind you, and don't expect the Lib Dems to reap the benefits within the next year or so, it will take some time.

I still think that the Lib Dems had no choice but to go along with the Conservatives' plans, mostly because of them being junior partners. So, they had to give up a couple of things in order to get some others.

Alternatively, it went like this:

Lib: "Hey, don't raise those tuition fees."

Con: "Shut up [or you won't get xyz]!"

Lib: [utters no sound, puts its head down]

edited 10th Jan '18 6:49:38 PM by Quag15

Except for the part where to get huge support they'd need to be supplanting, by and large, a group that doesn't exist. That's the issue. Intrinsically they cannot fit the role the Tories play, and "we strongly opposed Brexit!" is really not going to mass-supplant Labour. Which wouldn't even achieve anything useful anyway, so why bother?

Yup, they sure did great on opposing things or... doing... anything. Their main achievement wasn't pushing for an electoral system nobody wanted at all. They used everything they had on trying to make it easier to get into power in future.

Then after this, despite the party's principles, they put a homophobe in charge. They're not getting credibility just for opposing something they can't touch.

edited 10th Jan '18 6:55:05 PM by RainehDaze

Keep in mind we aren’t talking about a party pledge to not raise tuition fees, we’re talking about personal pledges made by individual M Ps to never vote in favour of a rise in tuition fees.

That’s what pissed people off, they campaigned on this as personal pledges. They had fucking giant placards that they took to college and universities that said “I will never vote to raise tuition fees” and had their signature on it.

Oh and is right, even with Brexit and uncertainty over Labour the youth vote is never going back to the Lib Dems, I strait up cheered when Nick Clegg lost his seat, whatever else happened that night Clegg loosing his seat to a Labour MP made it all worthwhile. We know we’re fucked with Brexit, but the sheer hatred towards the Lib Dems means they’ve lost a generation.

You’re more likely to see the Greens surge if Labour fails students than the Lib Dems, the Lib Dems are tainted as backstabbing bastards who betrayed their base for power.

edited 10th Jan '18 11:48:54 PM by Silasw

Ireland got its first native Catholic MP sixteen years before the potato famine, shortly after the last penal laws (which basically prevented the island’s Catholic majority from bettering themselves in nearly any way) were repealed. For a long time before and past the famine, though, the overwhelming majority of Irish MPs were English or Irish Protestant, and 70% were either landlords or sons of landlords (the landlord system being the horrendously brutal English colonial wealth-extraction mechanism). Plus, Catholic farmers (that being most Catholics, because social discrimination lingers long past legal discrimination) were further impoverished by the Tithe Law, which requires them to donate 10% of their produce every year to fund the (Anglican Protestant) Church of Ireland.

Ireland hadn’t decolonised nearly enough by the time of the famine to handle the consequences when the colonial system started killing them.

Again, less a colonial system and more a blatant continuation of medieval politics. Representation within government—both in the Lords and Commons—and being the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland are still far more impact and dignity than actual colonies ever got, for all that the benefits of such were focused entirely on a tiny sector of the population. It doesn't fit most definitions of colony to throw Ireland in with actual colonial powers despite treatment of the lower classes. Colonies tended not to be started because of feudalism and trying to sort out titles for younger sons/keeping nobles in line. It's a long history of medieval politics and religious intolerance, yes, but it wasn't a colonial system.

edited 11th Jan '18 2:46:44 AM by RainehDaze

Yeah, Raineh Daze is right here. Young people are the least likely to forgive the Lib Dems, as they've been fucked over clearly and immediately by the tuition fees thing, and the general "getting into bed with the Tories" thing. It doesn't matter what the facts are, and whether perhaps the Lib Dems really did hold back the worst of the Tory tide, their perception is completely defeated. Clegg looked, in the run up to the election, like a breath of fresh air but he came across as a complete Judas afterwards.

Those same young people who suffered because of the Lib Dem betrayal will not forgive and will not forget.

Anything gained by restraining the Tories for four years is largely offset by being responsible for the Tories being in charge in the first place. Ten years of Tory control at the worst possible time and unintentionally setting the stage for the referendum...

So bottom line: the Lib Dems screwed over the youth, screwed over the UK, and screwed over themselves.

Maybe...I nevertheless think that the Lib Dems will be better off sticking to their guns than the Tories and Labour will be for playing party politics to the disadvantage of the whole nation.

Oh you’re right, but they’re not getting the student vote back, that ship has sailed. This gives them a chance to get votes from older Remain voters and maybe even older voters who sour on Brexit.

They’re not getting the youth vote though.

Farage wants a 2nd referendum it seems, or is thinking about it, in order to silence the Remain campaign for a generation.

Any chance that would go like May's special elections did?

Almost certainly.

We've been over this before: both of those two have major voting blocs that went for Leave. If they went "following this referendum, fuck you", it would be bad for both of them, and just stop and think what sort of party would pick up a jilted Remain vote. Not the Lib Dems.

I am not sure if Farage is just talking big again or if he has realized that he is about to lose his cushy job at the EU and being blamed for the downfall of the UK economy for years to come. After all, he never actually wanted to win this thing, did he? He just wanted political capital by just losing.

edited 11th Jan '18 6:17:34 AM by Swanpride

well... all I know is Question Time is gonna be interesting tonight....

edited 11th Jan '18 1:07:44 PM by FieldMarshalFry

This conversation reminds me of the Liberal Democrats' election broadcast four years ago. [1]
They built their whole strategy on being "The Party of IN!", emphasising their Europhilia to contrast themselves to UKIP and the Conservatives. They wound up falling to just one MEP, whereas UKIP got 24.

Posting here and in the US Politics thread:

Apparently Trump won't be opening the new American Embassy in London because he doesn't want to be associated with a "Bad Deal" Obama made. The thing is though, the new embassy was a decision made by the Bush administration.

The special relationship is alive and well, I see.

When half of the relationship is Trump, it's better if the relationship is not special, no?

It's like the diametric opposite of God Was My Copilot - but then the Maybot will just simper / sneer and do what she's told.

Times like this, at least Blair was somewhat in control. We had SOME clout in the relationship.

So, apparently Corbyn's done a shadow cabinet reshuffle, and why are there shadow ministers for fire and buses??◊

Edit: fire minister is actually more about emergencies overall in the full title, the short version sounded a bit wierder than it really is, sorry.

edited 12th Jan '18 3:01:15 PM by IFwanderer

Shadow Minister for Fire sounds like we're about to enter some weird fantasy realm.

On a different note, has anyone ever explained to Hammond that calling the people you want to talk to backwards thinking and paranoid is NOT the best way to start a charm offensive? This is a page straight from Boris Johnson's playbook.

You expect him to listen to anybody who tries? :/